Jono & Jason – A Tenth Give or Take?
Continuing the “Hebrew Roots” journey through the book of Hebrews, Mr. Spiritualbabies and I ask, who gave 10% in Genesis 14:20 and what was it 10% of anyway? Why do some English translations say “Abram” and some say “he”?
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[audio:https://truth2u.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth2U-Spiritualbabies-10th-Give-or-Take.mp3|titles=Truth2U – Spiritualbabies – 10th Give or Take]
If Melchizedek gave a tenth to Abram, it could well have been a reward for ridding the evil kings out of the Kings land… Shem would have been King of that whole region…
CJB: “Avram gave him a tenth of everything”
howdy all , i must start by saying i had to listen twice just to hear jono ” jono” my name
so kooliest lololo 🙂
any way
physical books on hand
1.Oxford self pronounceing (printed in great britian) my personal beside bed favorite
small compact but falling apart ( would give any thing to have new one)
uses the word -He
2.Gideons – Bible KJV – He i used to be Gideon have several & maybe 50 pocket Nt
3.CJB Sterns large print – adds
4.New schofield refference oxford – He
5.Dakes Annotated great bible – He
6.Tanakh JPS adds but in brackets
7.Open bible nas -He
8.The logos complete study bible asv – he
9.NIV serendipity bible for group study – adds
10.Thompson chain – He
11.Harper study RSV -adds
12.Mofatt -adds
13.Modern language bible – He
14.NAS reference – He
15.NIV zondervan -adds
16.NAB for catholics – adds & with note saying litterly gave but abam is the subject
17.Holy Bible 1886 New tork ABS -He
18.RSV nelson 1953 – adds
19.Ancient Hebrew Torah Jeff Benner PALEO HEBREW No avrm
Blue letter app on cell phone
1. KJV – He
2.NKJV- -He
3.NLV -adds
4.NIV- adds
5.ESV- adds
6.Reina -Valena (sp) – adds
7.NASB – He
8.RSV- adds
9.ASV – He
10.YLT – He
11.Darby – He
12.Hebrew name – adds
13.Latin Vulgate – He
14.Westminster lenng – He
15.Greek Sept- He
any way i dont think personally avrm took ANY THING not even the meal , i also think the text plainly brings across the fact that he brings back the spoils from / every one
but his COVENANT is with el elyon and no one elese.
if we look his nephfew lot is actually called his ( brother ) as he is in covenant with him also the whole purpose of going really as we know prior to him Avrm is already a VERY wealthy man .. i
in december of this year in a conference with Rico Cortes he also publically agreed with me with i asked this very contextual question that NO avrm doesnt pay tithe and takes nothing.
but any way shabbat shalom
Hi Jono and Jason…
Thanks for the clarity to the Scriptures you are sharing with all who choose to listen. This is what it says in the Bibles that I have:
The Sacred Scriptures, Bethel Edition: Gen 14 v 20 – “And he gave him a tenth of all.”
The Society for Distributing Hebrew Scriptures Tanakh (Hebrew & English): Gen 14 v 20 – “And he gave him tithes of all.”
The Stone Edition Torah: Gen 14 v 20 – “and he gave him a tenth of everything.”
JPS: As Rockey mentioned in his post
International Bible Society NIV: : Gen 14 v 20 – “Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything”
I am looking forward to your next recording and may the Most High, Our King Yehovah, keep you both along with your household.
Greetings Jono and Jason:
Again, a great video break down. Thanks for what each of you do to serve others. I’d like to share the following from differing rabbinic commentaries. Though I am truly blessed with Nehemia’s books and teachings (The Hebrew Yeshua vs Greek Jesus is one of my personal favorites), I can’t agree with him about Malchizedeck giving Abraham a tenth of everything.
Consider the following rabbinic references:
1) **Chumash p.65 (Rambam)**
“A tenth of everything” -> By giving tithes to Melchizedeck, Abraham symbolized that his descendants would give ‘maaser’ [tithes] to the Levites.”
2) **Targum of Onkelos p.79**
“And he gave him” -> Who is the “he” who gave? Rashi, Ibn Ezra, Bechor Sechor, and Nachmonides say that Abram gave to Melchizedeck. However, Radak and Chazkunee (based on the Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 32b) maintain that Melchizedeck gave to Abram, because Scripture states that Abram refused to take any spoils. If he took nothing, he could not have give Melchizedeck a tenth of what he had, nor could he give a tenth of the spoils assigned to another person. Why did Melchizedeck give Abram the tenth? It was the priestly portion. Melchizedeck, a priest, forfeighted the portion when he disrespectfully mentioned Abram’s name before speaking of God in verse 19
3) **The Schocken Bible** p.63
“a tenth” – Like the tithe later given to Israelite priests
4) “And [Abram] gave him a tenth of everything.” (JPS of America, 1962)
5) “and he gave him”: [i.e.,] Abram [gave Malchizedek] a tithe from all that was his because he was a priest. [from Gen. Rabbah 44:7] (The Complete Jewish Bible, w/Rashi Commentary, link: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8209)
—-
Here is my question guys:
If the Levitical priest received tithes, is there biblical proof that it was different according to ‘Gen. 14:20’ – ? If Melchizedeck gave a tenth to Abram, and not Abram to Melchizedeck, when did it change that tithes went to the Levitical priests in the Torah? And, how is ‘Gen. 26:5’, applicable and fulfilled afterwards by Abram, which says:
“…because that Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Torot [Laws].’
?
If the later ‘revelation’ of the Torah, given to Moses, confirms Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and confirms that the Levitical priests were to receive tithes, how can we believe that Melchizedeck gave Abram a ‘tenth of everything’?
Just submitting some food for thought.
Thanks again for what you guys do.
-Anthony
If Gen. 14:20 says Melchizedek gave Abraham a tenth of all (the spoils of war?) and Hebrews 7 says Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of all, is it possible they are both correct?
First of all, it is apparent that Melchizedek and the king of Sodom believed they had the authority to decide the distribution of the spoils, for whatever reason. Secondly, we are told Abraham took none of the spoils.
Let’s say, for example, Abraham won a tenth of a million dollar lottery but decided not to take his winnings. Could we not correctly say Abraham gave away a tenth of a million dollars? He had won it, it was his to do with as he pleased.
Just a thought…..
@Karen
I still don’t see how God changed suddenly with givign the later ‘revelation’ of the Torah to Moses in the the Levitical priests received tithes. ‘Gen. 26:5’ is clear that Abraham obeyed the voice of God, God’s commandments, God’s charge, statues, and Torot [plural for ‘Laws’].
If Melchizedeck gave a tenth, as a priest, to Abraham, and then later, this same God, who ‘Mal. 3:6’ says “..does not change”, actually CHANGED and commanded that Levitical priests suddenly are to receive the ‘tenth’ later when speaking to Moses, we have a real problem here…
Does God change or does He not? Does Abraham give a tenth to Melchizedeck, which witnesses TO what God told Moses in the Torah, OR does God ‘change’ from allowing priests to ‘give a tenth’ to Abram, but commands Levitical priests to receive a ‘tenth’ later?
Again, just submitting some food for thought…
Have a good one.
Halleluyah Scriptures has He
@Anthony
Maybe Melchizedek, as King, gave Abraham a tenth of the spoils for his participation in the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him and had nothing to do with priestly tithes. I think Abraham gave back his share because he went to war to rescue his relative Lot, not for financial gain. Although Abraham was not as rich or powerful (the lesser) as King Melchizedek (the greater) Abrahams desire to please Yehovah was more important than material possessions.
If Abraham gave his tenth of the spoils back to Melchizedek, a priest of God Most High, could this have foreshadowed that the Levitical priest were to receive tithes?
Just a though….
It makes sense that melchizedek gave a tenth to abram since abram didnt take anything…it seems more rational for me that abram was giving back evrything to their rightful owners hence melchizedek gave him a tenth maybe as sort of a reward or thanks. Abram didnt own anything of the spoils, it wasnt his to start with… — just my own opinion….
Btw, im using His Name Tanach, and it says Abram gave Melchizedek the tenth….
Abram said that he did not accept anything from the Kings. So they could not say that they made him wealthy. Those towns were full of evil as was attested to later. He never said that a righteous man could not bless him. In that way his blessing would have come through a tzadik and not a corrupted way. Malecktzadik is just an upright King is it not? Just a thought.
My KJV reads: “And he gave him tithes of all”, however immediately after it states:
“And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.”
I interpret it as the king originally offered all of the goods and only wanted the persons, which in turn Abram stated the following verses:
“And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:”
If at first the king offered all and Abram rejected, how could he have received the tithes?
Just a thought.
Shalom
well, that pretty well shoots down the “new” testament teaching about how EVerybody is a king and a priest after the order of Melchesedek…the Torah is abrogated, but gimme those tithes.
I don’t see how you say YHVH changed, 2 separate issues: Levitical tithes and Gen 14.
Plus, the Levitical tithes were agricultural—
It’s plainly a doctrinal error steming from the new testament/ King Jameth translation.
They read it wrong, too!
Time to get it straight.
Lots of people won’t like it.
Miriam
Hello Jono
This passage drives me crazy. But Here’s what I think for what it is worth.
No where does this passage talk about war. Gen 14:14 tells us that Abraham went in pursuit, I’m assuming he just wanted Lot back. I believe this is a rescue not a war.
Then in Gen.14:23 Abraham says that he won’t take anything that is their’s, so even Abraham believes that all of the booty belongs to these Kings. And the Kings sound like they also believe it all belongs to themselves.
In Gen.14:20 My bible says ” and he gave him a tenth of all. ” So I believe that Abraham did not give a tenth of anything to anyone.
Since Hebrews is addressed to (presumably) Messianic Hebrew believers, could we assume that this was a generally-accepted belief among 1st Century Jews, that is, that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek? Or perhaps that the writer subscribed to a particular school of thought (Paul studied under Gamaliel, the rabbis had numerous debates about interpretation)?
It appears to me from this discussion that Melchizedek is the one giving (or granting) the tenth, and it is probably a reward for restoring the goods and captives. Abraham will receive a tenth from a righteous king, but will take nothing from an unrighteous one. The King of Sodom is attempting to dictate terms (keep the stuff, give back the people) and Abraham refuses to bite.
Abraham is the one who risks his neck to go get it all back. He is in personal possession of all of it. He has the right to give a tenth of all to Melchizedek, but why wouldn’t he just give Melchizedek all of his people and possessions back? The righteous king says “a tenth of all rightfully belongs to you”.
A possible conclusion is, everybody else got their stuff back but Melchizedek gave Abraham a tenth of HIS people and possessions. He wouldn’t accept a gift from an unrighteous king, so the tenth must have come from the righteous one.
As for Hebrews 7, IF… IF it contradicts Torah it can be disregarded as a mistranslation or the opinion of the writer.
2 cents Canadian.
I listened to your video but could not listen to the end because there was a lot of ‘mocking’ around. I sincerely don’t mean that as an insult in anyway so please accept my apology if ti comes out that way but I could perceive that you had a lot to share but by the time I had listened to part of it I got head ache because you both kept ‘mocking’ aorund instead of getting straight to the point. All I want to know is why and how do we have to pay TITHE and I did not get it from this. You are obviously doing a great job, at least I can see that from the comments above, so keep doing the good work but I wish you could have helped me better. Please try and get straight to the point next time instead of ‘mocking’ aorund because it takes away from the importance and meaning of what you are trying to share. GOD BLESS!
G’day Olusola, thanks for your comment. Here is something a little more specific to what you’re after 😉 https://truth2u.org/2011/11/yoel-ben-shlomo-the-question-of-the-tithe.html
Good stuff, as always! Very much enjoy your discussions, and the manner in which you conduct them. Love the lively conversation, and all the things I learn, and/or, that are confirmed to me. There’s never a dull moment and I’m glad because I can get my bore on for real, in about two minutes flat, of some people talking.
I had previously come to the conclusion that it was the Melchizedeck that paid the ten percent, but I sometimes question myself so much, it’s really nice to know that other people have seen what I do.
I don’t know why he gave the ten, and could not speculate…nor do I want to. I would like to know the mechanics of how that came to be but, as far as I know, the words don’t say, and I’m good with that.