6 Comments

1. 

   BibleRealityCheckTV says

   Shalom Jono! At the risk of being verbally beaten to death by your listeners, I’m going to post this anyway, since your refutation of those Messianic prophecies were kicked off by a list you found on our website, The Refiner’s Fire. We have gone through all the “365” ourselves and realized there were definitely some problems with it. The full list, which originally contained 365 entries, had many citations which were improperly cited, or could be considered “duplicate” because they pointed to the same messianic connection but different verses. Though a “count” of prophecies is not so important, these errors and duplications did not seem “right” to include, so they were corrected or removed. This is the updated list: http://therefinersfire.org/prophecies.htm (We accept that, instead of just copying it from some other website and believing it to be correct, we should have done due diligence on the list in the first place!)

   Arguably there are still some duplicates in this revised list, but the connection between the Tanach and Yeshua in these cases was considered worthy of inclusion. Therefore the total number of prophecies/connections is no longer “365”; rather it just exceeds 300. This is not a “magic number”, for this list could grow depending on other scripture associations recognized as messianic connections.

   It became clear while revising this list that the scripture translation used is CRITICAL. The closer to the original Hebrew, the more complete the messianic tie. The loss of meaning in some English translations is sometimes stunning! In the end, what is important is not the total number of prophecies; rather it is the simple fact that that the number is not small.

   While not everything in this list can be described as a “prophecy”, the narrative in the Tanach is astoundingly rich in connections between what was revealed hundreds and thousands of years before the Messiah, and the actions and words of Messiah Yeshua which were captured in the Brit Chadasha – the “New Testament”. Remember, the Brit Chadasha did not exist at the time but was later compiled ABOUT the Messiah.

   While some scoffers may argue against many of the connections listed in their quest to deny the Messiah, we would challenge them instead to not waste their time on the “list” and, instead, come up with their own list of prophecies in the Tanach which they acknowledge foretell of “a” Messiah (whom they think is yet to come) and compare their own list to Yeshua! Better yet, take that list and compare it to any of those men whom have already been “claimed” as the Jewish Messiah (see Wikipedia for that list!) and see for yourself if any of them pass the muster! If you find JUST ONE, other than the well-documented Yeshua, who meets or exceeds your list, let us know!

2. 

   Roberta says

   To RealityCheck,

   If we find the books written about those Messiah’s maybe we will. All you need is slicing texts, make a collage and add a pinch of abstract thought and voila.

   Remember the books you read were brought to you and allowed to become a “bible” by the same people that says that Mary is co Redeemer, that her mother was also a virgin, that Peter was the first pope, that dead people can heal others upon prayers, the cruzades and the inquisition.

   I would not believe in anything book these people would put together. All you can read it is what THEY selected of the thousands of other manuscripts.

   What if they had added the book where Jesus make birds out of clay and make them fly? I AM SURE you can make this event be a prophecy foretold.

   If others want to bring the “prophecies” about how Jesus is the Messiah.

   God created living beings – Jesus created living beings
   God set us free – Jesus set us free

   Add your prophecy here ->

3. 

   Darren says

   If the Christians clearly admit that Jesus was Jewish, and that they strive to be like Jesus, then why on earth do they teach and practice the polar opposite of what the Jewish people believe in, our Creator’s Torah?

   Although I do wonder about the Jewishness of Jesus, having made those radical statements and claims about himself (But I say unto you…, no man comes to the Father except by me…, whoever loves his father and mother more than me is not worthy of me…, the lord of the sabbath… etc).

   And as a Christian I have always feared the coming of the “antichrist”, but now I realize I have become among the “many antichrists” (1John 2:18), simply because I desire to follow Torah, and to learn from the Jewish people and align myself with them having no fear.

   I never realized how prevalent antisemitism is in the NT and currently in the world today, yet Christianity states the Messiah has come? I totally understand the Jewish perspective now, how could I have been so blind.

   Psalm 119:18 Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy Torah.

   I no longer want that messiah who resulted in doing away with the Torah, I want The Messiah who will rightfully restore the Torah back.

4. 

   Sophiee says

   I applaud Refiner’s Fire owner who admitted in the first comment here that her list was faulty and these programs caused her to make the effort to correct her list. Her willingness to do that, and to come to Truth2U and admit it, shows a person with honor and integrity. I’m quite impressed. Unfortunately for her there are none of the Christian proof texts actually point to Jesus as I’m sure we’ll continue to see as Jono and Rabbi Skobac continue their way through the list of 365.

   She went on to write that the narrative in the Tanach is astoundingly rich in connections between what was revealed hundreds and thousands of years before the Jesus and Jesus as portrayed in the Christian bible. However Rabbi Moshe Shulman once showed how easy it is to misapply quotes from the T’nach out of context to fit anyone or anything. He wrote an articled about a “messianic rooster” who fit the same type of force fit prophecies Christians use to fit texts to Jesus. Yes, dear lady, those “connections” can fit a rooster just as well as they fit Jesus!

   Here is just the opening paragraph of R’ Shulman’s “proof texts” about his rooster.

   “Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, ‘I am the rooster[1] who has seen affliction.’[2] I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, ‘And he circled his head[3].’[4] I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, ‘Only against me did he turn his hand.’[5]

   [1] In Hebrew the word ‘gever’ means both ‘man’ and ‘rooster’
   [2] Lam. 3:1
   [3] In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as ‘rosh’ head’
   [4] Lam 3:5
   [5] Lam 3:3”

   http://judaismsanswer.com/A%20Chassidic%20Rabbi%20Makes%20a%20Startling%20Discovery.htm

   Since she also challenged us to “come up with a list” of true messianic prophecies and compare it to Jesus. We did that 2000 years ago — and that is why we know Jesus is a false messiah. He failed to fulfill even one of the true messianic prophecies. Admittedly this are small things like world peace, returning all the Jews to Israel (the few in Judah in Jesus time were mostly thrown out within 100 years of his supposed death), rebuilding the Temple (the Temple stood in Jesus time and was destroyed after his death). . . when one compares the true prophecies to Jesus he seems to have done the OPPOSITE of the prophecies. . . the poor owner of Refiner’s Fire has her work cut out for her given that she has integrity and the truth is not on her side.

5. 

   Aaron Kavli says

   I think the Refiners Fire (which I read often when I was a Messi, and I do thank you Carmen for the teachings you offered at that point in my journey) and others that point to the many prophecies are looking at things backwards. Instead of resting on how many debatable prophecies might have been fulfilled by Jesus, I only need to look to those which are obviously messianic prophecies that unarguably, have NOT been fulfilled to know that the promised one has not yet come. No world peace, no universal knowledge of Yehovah, no restoration of Israel… no messiah. My list is much shorter and more to the point.

   Yehovah Bless,
   Aaron Kavli

6. 

   Aaron Kavli says

   And I forgot to give Refiner’s Fire kudos for owning up and correcting things pointed out. You don’t see that very often these days.

   Yehovah Bless,
   Aaron Kavli