Jesus hidden in Bereshit and the Feasts! Answering the comments.
Do we need to surrender and accept the secret messages? Join Jono and Jason as they consider the different elements of this message and see if there really is a valid argument for submitting to a hidden agenda.
You can find the related comment here.
Odd, I don’t get it either, and I just came from Christianity. However, some of that is common language in Christianity. What convinced me of Jewdiasm, (sorry, spell check wont five me a proper spelling of it) is the inconsistency of the New Testament and the Jews have to have the answer, they’ve been studying the Torah for thousands of years! How could anyone else change it and try to convince the world that it’s not changed, when obviously, in the New Testament, even by it’s name alone and.. the story’s of Christ that has changed and rearranged the whole Torah and the books of the Prophets, how could this be right then?
You guys are rich with disdain. And for your readers, I never said half of what you claim I’ve said. You’ve put words in my mouth to make your sarcastic points. And you’ve chosen to not read very important points which you clearly want to avoid addressing.
So here are some issues that I did not feel I needed to spell out but obviously I am wrong. YHVH appeared many many times in the Tanak in the form of a man, speaking, sitting, walking, etc. and not only the two examples you cited. However, in your discredit of Torah, and while making fun of your Father’s word, you’ve been very elementary. Read VERY SLOWLY about the messenger called YHVH that sat there with Abraham. Who did Abraham say He was? What is the title Abraham used for Him? Who led Israel (messenger) in the wilderness that has the power to forgive sin? Who spoke to Samuel? Who spoke to Gideon? What is claimed about these instances that you are glossing over? If you are reminding your audience to be true to the text, then take your own advice!
As for Ezek 18, you still don’t get it. No HUMAN BEING dies for another’s sin. He dies for his own. How in the world are you connecting YHVH (or His house) to this verse?
For the NT and your obvious accepted conclusions prevalent in modern day evangelical christianity, you read it without spiritual eyes. Paul never said what you claim. Acts 15 is about brit periah, the “yoke” of man made laws…….so is the whole book of Galations. Paul circumcised Timothy!!!!!! He did not throw out Torah and then follow Torah while delivering a letter to the Galations that throws out Torah. That is the convoluted message of christianity. But….if you will read without those biases, Paul kept Torah, proved it and was cleared of any wrong doing.
Most of modern Christianity reads the NT through the rulings of Constantine and Marcion and does not bother to slow down and understand what is right there in the text.
When Paul is talking disparagingly about the law, it’s the oral law, not Torah. It’s in the text!!!!……..I’m not claiming “secret knowledge”, how absurd!!!! Read Col 2, “human traditions of men” is the subject matter. Gal., “another gospel” is the subject matter. Even in the Gal 3, the “Book of the Law” is quoted several times in that same passage to debunk the “works of the law(oral law) that the Galations were being taught to follow. That is why Titus would not submit. For heavens sake, Paul talked about “human commands” to Titus in his letter and to “rebuke them sharply” for bringing in such garbage. This is the exact same problem Yeshua dealt with and that is why Paul said he wished they (galatians) “would go the whole way and emasculate themselves”. HE IS NOT DISPARAGING TORAH! HE IS DISPARAGING ORAL LAWS CREATED BY MEN.
Isaiah speaks of this problem; “a rule for this, a rule for that”. He calls it a covenant with death. Even quite interesting is that Paul quotes Isaiah 20 in Gal 3 where YHVH tells Israel of the judgment to come for following after other gods. He quotes from this passage of Isaiah to the Galation church. When you read Isaiah 20 you find that it is clearly spelled out that Israel is going to get exactly what they asked for…….laws that follow after another god, laws they cannot possibly keep. This is the “yoke” discussed throughout NT. It is the subject matter of Matt 23. Yeshua said very clearly, “DO WHAT IS read from Moses’ seat but DO NOT DO what the pharisees were adding to those commands”.
While you simply want it written like you want it written and refuse to see that had it been spelled out like you desire, who would have ever been complicit in the plan? Certainly not the spiritual realm…….and most likely not the human realm if they studied scripture and had a brain. Yet you, 2000 years later, claim that if its not offered to you with crayons and a coloring book so you can stay within the lines, its simply not there. Again, I say UNBELIEVABLE ARROGANCE!
Jer 2:12Be appalled at this, you heavens,
and shudder with great horror,”
declares YHVH.
13 “My people have committed two sins:
They have forsaken Me,
the spring of living water,
and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.
wow, in listening to the end of this again, are you actually saying that YHVH does not or did not speak in the stars? What does Genesis 1:14 say? What does Psalm 19:1 say? Do you care or will you make fun of those verses too?
Let me get this straight….you are claiming that YHVH (or Torah) teaches that YHVH cannot or would not bring any kind of act (or disaster or calamity or circumstance) that would result in the death of animals therefore, Yeshua broke the Torah when He assigned the demons to the herd of swine? Are you kidding me, Torah teaches no harm to the animal kingdom? And He STOLE that herd of swine?
I am not “adding” to the sacrifices. They were stopped in 70AD. I’m simply saying that a man came to earth and it changed the world. You cannot deny this. No one has ever claimed by his words or his actions to be and to prove who He said He was! Our whole calendar points to this man. He either is a lunatic and could not possibly have done anything he said, or His influence and His message and His accomplishment changed forever, the harshest most pagan society to have ever been on the earth. (also words according to Torah and also prophetic timing) (but I now doubt you know what I’m referring to).
Who was given power in the end according to Daniel 7? How is that person described that defeats all other powers? What else does Daniel teach about what happens to those who agree with YHVH’s plan? Why is that particular outcome significant? What is described in Isa 53 about a lamb? Now I get it what’s coming next. You’re going to make some random connection to a human being but you would be wrong. When studying scripture, you let the Bible interpret the Bible. Who is this “lamb” and why use the term “lamb” being led to a slaughter? What would Israel have immediately associated that with?
The reason I did not include all the scriptures in my original comments was because I assumed you would have had the depth of knowledge to know what I was referring to…..afterall…..you’ve set yourself up as teachers. Obviously, I was mistaken and obviously, you are not who you claim to be!
The way John Kostic and most christians interpret Scripture is like looking at an ink blot test or cloud formations. They SUBJECTIVELY see something, define it as “pointing to jesus”, teach it as doctrine and call anyone who can’t see jesus in the ink blot “blind”!
ServingFaithfull… “I’m simply saying that a man came to earth and it changed the world. You cannot deny this.”
Mohammad changed the world
John Smith changed the world
Buddha changed the world
Hitler changed the world
Cell phones changed the world
I don’t deny that ANY of those “changed the world”, but it does not make any of them God.
Wow you guys try to be so faithful and read exactly what she wrote and she says you are putting words in her mouth.
@servingfaithfully “As for Ezek 18, you still don’t get it. No HUMAN BEING dies for another’s sin.” “I’m simply saying that a man came to earth and it changed the world.” From your mouth, Jesus was a man, a man can’t die for another’s sin. You trying to have it both ways?
@servingfaithfully Look at how large Islam has grown, statistically more followers than Christianity since Muhammad. Is this growth applied to Muhammad as proof like the influence of Jesus is used as you used it? He was either a looney or who he claimed to be, by your same logic. Islam claims to be evidenced by tanakh, also the Mormons have their own triple bible and claim later prophecy by a later prophet and have evidentiary “proof” from tanakh. Why don’t you believe Islam and Mormonism? It’s the same claim, why is their claim false and yours correct?
We come-out of Christianity, not ignoring a ‘plan’ or forsaking truth. In our spiritual growth we have lived in the NT, but now embrace what Yehovah actually says in His Tanakh. We do not see the Christian allusion to Jesus in any Tanakh text, as the Church plants him there. I do however, believe Paul and Rome can be found in Deuteronomy 13.
Oops, in my post above, I said Isaiah 20, it is Ezekiel 20.
As to the rest of you, here is the problem. Those of us who have come out of Christianity (I have too), at some point, saw all of the distortions and contradictions in the NT. It didn’t make sense. For me, the most troubling part was Yeshua’s words verses Paul’s words……polar opposite in some instances, at least I thought. So we go on a quest.
We have two roads. Those of you who are of the camp of truth2u, have taken one road and chucked out the whole NT, and as I said, you are reinterpreting passages in Tanak to NOW claim they are not messianic. You do quite a bit of gymnastics to get around the plain text. You deny any further or deeper meaning in the stories, the sacrificial system, substitutionary atonement, what the Temple design might actually mean, what the Feasts (all of them) might actually declare, what is written in the stars, etc. In fact, for thousands of years, the sages (Jewish), the humble, the witnesses standing there in the 1st century AD and even a little child would all agree that Isaiah 9, Isaiah 53, and Psalm 22 are messianic. I’m not making this up. It is documented and you guys, 2000 years later think you are so smart, you want to deny this, shake your fist at YHVH and dare to slander His Word! Your arrogance against the Most High is quite astounding.
Then there is the other road. The road that few are on. We’ve seen the exact same thing you have seen. We’ve been frustrated by the text exactly as you have been. BUT>>>>>we don’t go to mere men for our answers. IN fact, if you will read the Bible, you realize pretty quickly that following the doctrines of mere men (as if they are a god) is what derailed the whole thing from the start. It is the dilemma in the New Testament. Human doctrines and teachings are the problem throughout the Bible. The Jewish charlatans that have the loudest voices have become your “gods” that you are following. They are reprobate. They are adulterous fools who don’t even learn from the mistakes of their forefathers. Read Ezek 20 as I said above. Read it!!!!! And then you will see that anyone who does what tovia and michael do every single day when they get out of bed and get dressed, is nothing but a fulfillment of the judgment YHVH handed down in Ezek 20. It is a “covenant unto death” as Isaiah says.
Some of us have taken the narrow road, bent our knees and asked our Father how to make sense of the Bible from left to right. He is faithful. He has opened the eyes of those who know Him. He shows us the text itself. It is NOT secret knowledge. It is right there on the pages of the passages. These two guys on truth2u ridicule their Father’s word. They have so little humility when it comes to the Tanak that it is sickening. For sure, they do not know their God nor do they fear Him.
Acts 21-28 tell us that Paul DID NOT teach differently than Yeshua. So what in the world has happened to our theology where we say he has? Constantine happened. The Roman Catholic church happened. Up until 321AD, Sabbath was kept holy. All NT participants in the Bible kept the Sabbath. They ate according to Lev 11. All of their words and arguments are from this foundation. They are railing against the false doctrines that say otherwise. Read it yourself. Pay attention to phrases like “merely human commands”, “another gospel”, “human teachings from man”, etc. Don’t “add to it” or “take away from it”. Peter never said his vision was about eating anything unclean, Constantinian Christianity says this. Paul never said to not circumcise your 8 day old baby boy, CC says this. Yeshua never ever ever changed anything about Torah, CC says He did.
If you will stop shaking your fist at YHVH and bend your knees instead, He will show you.
Yes, Rome has made changes……but the changes are ORALLY TAUGHT, they are definitely not in the text. You have to check your brain at the door, be indoctrinated to a particular theology and then go try to prove that in the scriptures. We’ve all done exactly that in evangelical christianity. In doing so….we are guaranteed to be led astray….exactly as you guys are led astray now by continuing to follow the doctrines of men. You may have changed direction but you are refusing to sit at your Master’s feet and be taught by Him. Just what do you think the new covenant is all about? Jeremiah tells us we have a Teacher……and guess what, it’s not tovia, its not michael, its not jono or jason.
If you don’t check your brain at the door, and you throw out your indoctrinated theology to just read the text itself, you realize that it never ever says what we’ve thought and what we’ve been taught.
For those who’ve commented about how Muhammad has changed the world also, I guess I should have been more precise. My “changed the world” was in the context of those who recognize YHVH as God, not the gazillions of people who are His enemies. In that context (and I might even call it the world of Jews) of the first century, it is undeniable then and since then that those who are searching for eternal life through YHVH (lost sheep) have been led to the conclusions of the NT (if you read it correctly without roman/constantinian slant). It is ignorant and elementary to not take into consideration, those who were on the scene. Certainly their own testimony is the most compelling. None of them were fully “in” during the 3 yr documentary they wrote about. None of them understood the Tanak (before His death) to say what they NOW know it says and what THEY concluded it says. That alone is reason to believe that YOU cannot go back now and destroy their testimony. You believe yourself to be more credible and a more scholarly student of Tanak than they were? than the guys who actually walked and talked with Yeshua? Highly highly doubtful at best and the grandest of boastful arrogance at the least!
After they EXPERIENCED their testimony, they bought in fully…so to speak. Yeshua died, their eyes were opened to the Tanak BY YESHUA HIMSELF (do you see your own fallacy?) and they were so determined to stick by their story, that they and many many others like them, documented it and were killed for it. Now don’t go relating this to Islam. No one believing the Bible kills themselves over the story. But many many many people have died <<>> over the truth.
Why didn’t they just recant? Why didn’t they just do what you guys have done? Why didn’t they just reinterpret Isa 53 and say it’s not messianic? Why didn’t they just say that Isaiah (or whoever) had a son and they enrolled him in Torah school as “almighty God”? “Just call my son ‘everlasting Father’, he’ll answer to that.” Why didn’t they stick Ezekiel 18 in the face of their brothers and tell them how wrong they were about Yeshua? Afterall, had you guys been there, you would have done exactly that! You would have saved your own skin and said “no man dies for the sins of another man, he dies only for his own and that is the end of the matter. How smart am I. See, I………..understand Tanak! I……….know the plans of YHVH! You………..did not know because you are not as smart as me even though I……….live 2000 years later! I know you were there on the scene………..but gee guys, you are just an invention of Rome!”
foolish foolish path to take…….
many many many people have died……..at the hand of the enemy……over the truth. (not sure why that didn’t print out as I typed it)
YOU SAID: I guess I should have been more precise. My “changed the world” was in the context of those who recognize YHVH as God, not the gazillions of people who are His enemies.
They are only “enemies” TO YOU. To them, YOU are the “enemy”. It is all very subjective. You don’t believe Mohammad had a divine encounter and they don’t believe Paul did. Everyone believe THEIR “holy man” and the books HE wrote.
But God said, “Do not add or subtract from the Torah.” The koran, the book of mormon and the new testament and all the rest are all voided.
YOU SAID: Why didn’t they recant. (what is that Josh McDowel? 30 or 40 yrs ago?)
Here is why they did not recant… for the same reason Scotty was able to save the engine on the Enterprise from blowing up dozens of times – IT WAS IN THE SCRIPT.
The NT is a fantasy so OF COURSE the “hero” wins.
From the virgin birth to the tribulation, it is all an invention of men which is used to lead people AWAY from the One True God and His Torah.
The hypocrisy is strong with this one, claiming everyone else is arrogant while being the self defining arbiter of correct interpretation. Guess what? If it’s clear in plain reading of the text then there is no discussion to be had. Guess what? You also live 2000 years later and using the NT to evidence the NT, well, I would hope you see the issue there. Anyway, I can tell from your inability to understand or unwillingness to contemplate my questions that continuing on with you in pointless, you have it all squarely figured out. Have a lovely day 🙂
I meant to include that dying for your belief doesn’t validate it, nor does it being an old belief. Babylonian sun worship is older than Christianity but that doesn’t make it true.
Actually I changed my mind, I’ll continue a little farther. You yourself admit to rejecting the NT as a whole other than what validates your beliefs. What I see is no where in tanakh that says this messiah will come, leave, you must believe in that messiah for salvation and forgiveness of sins while he’s gone and then when he comes back everything prophecied about the messiah, including if Isaiah 53 is messianic, will then come to fruition. It just isn’t there in a plain reading other than in the NT. When the messiah comes everyone will know it and if it’s Jesus I will happily call him messiah and follow him. As for right now, only the Father is due my worship and only Him I fear.
If you had bothered to read anything I have referenced, you would see the fallacy IDENTIFIED of modern evangelical christianity. They are wrong. You are correct about them. In that context, their “jesus” changes Torah and leads people to a new and improved “god”.
BUT
That is not what the NT says. It is what people think it says. It is what the church teaches it says. It is what Rome says it says. But in the text itself, Paul never tells anyone to disregard Torah or to no longer follow it. He says the exact opposite in Acts 21-28. Read it!
Neither does Yeshua. Yeshua IS TORAH. Yeshua IS YHVH. Just like He was YHVH sitting there speaking to Abraham. Just like He was there leading Israel into the promised land. YHVH put HIMSELF (“almighty God”, “everlasting FATHER”) into the womb of a virgin. YHVH is the Savior. YHVH is the one who died so that the adulterous, divorced wife could come back and not break the Torah law of marriage. YHVH is the one who gathers the lost sheep scattered on every high mountain. YHVH IS YESHUA. Yeshua IS YHVH.
Zech 14:9 YHVH will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Why does Zechariah say this? Why the need to identify one name instead of two? What are we actually saying when we say the hebrew word “yeshua”?
You need to take off the jesus goggles for just one second servingfaithfully. They are getting fogged up and seem to be now showing yeshua in all the old Hebrew texts instead of jesus.
You seem to still have one foot firmly stuck in christianity while also trying to distance yourself from it.
Once you get into “That is not what the NT says. It is what people think it says ” territory it makes it very difficult to argue with someone that constantly moves the goal posts to suit their argument.
I like this claim though … ” Paul never tells anyone to disregard Torah or to no longer follow it. ”
Im sure there are many verses that disagree with this, but i will start with a couple that come to mind.
Galations 2:16 [ ..knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.]
This verse is pretty clear in my view about Pauls rejection of Torah.
This would be insulting to read for any Jew i would imagine.
Also, it doesnt matter how many times you say it, your messiah/yeshua is not YHVH.
You have to reject many verses in Tanakh to make that claim. It is not biblical at all and is just another church delusion which you failed to detect and reject.
Once you muddy those waters you will never makes sense of what is going on. The messiah in Tanakh is not our creator.
MAssive slap to forehead !!!
Ditch that church rubbish and find out what actually written in Tanakh
Even IF pauls words were misconstrued to falsely reject Torah, the whole NT plot is still foreign to Torah. It would be like removing a single tick from an infested elephant and claiming it is now tick free, even though we can see otherwise.
What about Pauls claim ” for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
This is an outright attack on the purpose of Torah.
Then we have this cracker from over in Romans ” For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Continues “….that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
What is this hocus pocus?
I would stand back from anyone making those claims for fear of lightning strike. This again is totally opposite to Torah.
Do you know anything about Torah?
It seems you are basing most of your claims on ignorance of Torah. Trying to drive a square peg into around hole it seems.
Also the Torah is clear, if you send someones herd of cattle/pigs over a cliff, you are to repay the owner.
You claim they are putting words in your mouth but you say ” you are claiming that YHVH (or Torah) teaches that YHVH cannot or would not bring any kind of act (or disaster or calamity or circumstance) that would result in the death of animals therefore, Yeshua broke the Torah when He assigned the demons to the herd of swine? ”
You have stipulated some pretty tight conditions there in your claim about what the hosts have said which i do not believe they said.
I see lot of hypocrisy here and most if not all items you have referenced for evidence do not fit at all.
Waaayyyyy too many errors to list and respond to, becasue it seems you are only here to tell everyone else what to believe, even though the majority here have a good grip on Torah which helped them exit that cult to start with.
You have only re-aligned the deck chairs my friend. Now you need to explore T2U and discover what your missing out on. Start with the Daniel 9 conundrum before you try using that argument again.
https://truth2u.org/2015/05/13/debunking-365-messianic-prophecies-daniel-924-25-rabbi-michael-skobac/
Andrew Rivers,
I’ll comment specifically to you because you don’t think I have addressed your concern. I did say that dying is not the marker…..being killed is though. Dying at your own hand (Islam) cannot possibly be related to the many many saints who have been killed AT THE HAND OF THEIR ENEMY for their faith. Seriously???? You don’t see the difference? All these people were murdered, tortured, face to face with the teeth of a lion, slowly lowered into boiling oil, an ignition of fire at their feet to consume them from their toes up prolonging their agony and death, women having their breasts torn from their body, people being impaled through their genitalia, arms and legs torn from their body and on and on and on and on and you think its all a lie and these people are simply stubborn, stiff necked, misguided and ignorant of the scriptures? I would say they are resolved in their faith of Messiah!!!!
As to the other comments about what is easily apparent in Torah and what is veiled, how many times have you read about Abraham talking with YHVH who was right there in human terms sitting on the ground in front of him and understood the significance of the passage? I bet if you’re honest, you’ve probably read it dozens of times and not seen what is right there. We read things all the time in the Bible and we don’t see what is right there in the text. I never said that the NT was heresy. I said I was taught things that it said but when my eyes were unveiled, I realized what I was taught was actually NOT in the text. You can search it out for yourself. That is why i gave you some words to look up. Colossians 2 is about “human commands” being “nailed to the cross”. We’ve all been taught that Paul is talking about Torah but THE TEXT says otherwise. Galatians is about brit periah, NOT brit milah. Brit periah is man made circumcision laws. THE TEXT tells us the subject matter of Paul’s letter “another gospel”, “no gospel at all”. Go read it yourself. The letter to the Galatians is the 2nd one delivered. The first one is in Acts 15. The subject matter of Acts 15 is the “yoke” of man made laws. TORAH IS NEVER CONSIDERED A YOKE! They are not discussing Torah in Acts 15 except to point the gentiles to Torah! They are to start IMMEDIATELY with the 4 laws that govern the temple (our Body, the new residence of Torah – Jer 31) and then verse 21 points them to TORAH on SABBATH.
I’ve given you the clues and it is now to be your own search. Just like michael, tovia, jono and jason are not your teachers, neither am I….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your TEACHER is the One prophesied about in Jer 31. Either He is there to do what He says,……or…….He’s not there for you. But at no point is Jer 31 wrong. You, however, can be wrong.
Why does Ezek 18 not apply? Because YHVH divorced the house of Israel. He says He will bring them back into covenant marriage. But He can’t. Torah forbids it!!!!! He cannot remarry His adulterous wife.
Torah laws of marriage condemn her as a adulterer as long as her husband is alive. So what has to happen? EXACTLY as Isaiah 53 describes. The Servant is going to die. The Servant is the husband. The Servant is the One who was married to the house of Israel so that the house of Israel can be rejoined and Torah upheld. The SERVANT IS YHVH, born of a virgin, named “almighty God”, “everlasting Father”. He has been shown in human form throughout the Tanak. It is impossible for the Servant to be anyone other than YHVH precisely BECAUSE of Ezek 18.
Trent,
You are the perfect example of someone who does not keep reading to understand context. Finish the passage in Gal 2. Read on……… What is “the works of the law” that Paul is talking about?
“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?”…….. For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Go very slowly. All who rely on the “works of the law” are under a curse.
hmmm…….what do you suppose Paul is quoting? Why would anyone be under a curse for following the works of the law? What are the works and which law would he be talking about?
by golly, he’s quoting Deuteronomy 27 in the BOOK OF THE LAW! and it says that if you add to the Torah or take away from it, you are cursed. Man made laws are the “works of the law” that Paul is condemning. It is confirmed throughout the NT. I’ve already commented many times about it so I won’t go into it again. I suggest you not reply until you’ve actually gone and looked up every single time the subject matter is “human commands” so you can see where you have misinterpreted Paul. Then read Ezek 20. In fact, in the very passage I cited above, Paul quotes Ezek 20 as well!!!!!!!
btw, just as a sidebar that most of us have never paid attention to in the past:
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Even the translator of this passage realizes that two laws are being addressed. He capitalizes Torah, the “Book of the Law” as opposed to the “works of the law” that he is also addressing.
another clue to what is going on with all of Paul’s writings:
2Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain
(PAY ATTENTION TO THIS) some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the ERROR OF THE LAWLESS and fall from your secure position.
Well said Trent. I spent a long time trying to keep paul trustworthy but the contortionist I had to be to do that was utterly exhausting. The group led by Jesus brother James regarded Paul as a heretic and there’s no way around the gospels being heavily influenced by Paul, Paul’s letters being earlier. I can still argue that position well, I still know the Greek Testament very well and I wholly reject it. Pasting a book onto the back of another book is genius but doesn’t make it truth, if it did, I’m still uncertain why not to be Muslim or Mormon.
If two people claim to have Gods spirit of discernment for truth, if two people believe with the same zeal, ready to die for their faith, if both those people believe in tanakh and that it witnesses their belief but one is Christian and one is Muslim, who is correct? If you were an alien and picked up tanakh and read it front to back, with no foreknowledge or belief in Jesus, you’d have absolutely no problem seeing the large degrees of separation between them. I know not one Christian that became a Christian after diligent thorough study of the scriptures and the NT. There may be some but the overwhelming majority believed in Jesus first, then they might study for themselves. I know you’ll come try to poke holes in my statements but that’s okay. It’s my prayer you’ll turn the corner sooner than later. YHVH bless you and keep you, YHVH make his face shine upon you and bring you peace, amen.
I also have a question. If the apostles believed Isaiah 53 was messianic and about Jesus why were they so surprised and argumentative when Jesus told them he must be given into the hands of men, suffer and die in Matthew, Mark and Luke?
@servingfaithfully
Good day! I hope this reply finds you well. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and just say that I do believe you are being genuine here with saying what you believe. It is obvious you hold to your convictions very strongly and your zeal is respectable. Now, with the above said, I believe you are in grave error and are spreading complete rubbish. I’ll also give you the benefit of doubt in that you are most likely ignorant to what Torah, The Prophets, and the other writings teach. This isn’t your fault per se but after our discussion it is your responsibility to take a step back and seek the truth. You’ve said you’re not the teacher of anyone here which leads me to a disagreement with you. You see, I believe it is my duty to teach the truth and reprove those in error. Therefore, if you are open to it I will be more than happy to teach you the truth found in the Tanakh.
With the above said I wanted to point out a major error in something you stated. I believe that starting with Torah is of most importance and then we can move out from there to the Prophets and other writings. The foundation is Torah, so if you don’t understand the foundation then you’ll make many errors in your studies moving forward. Let’s point out one such error in your understanding. You stated that the God of Israel divorced Israel and that due to Torah, He is unable to remarry his adulterous wife. I heard someone give an analogy recently about the belief in Yeshua as Messiah and likened it to eating cotton candy, it taste good for a moment and it is super sweet but it is gone just as quickly as it was there. It just doesn’t last due to it not having any substance. What does this have to do with what you said? Well, you’ve taken a Christian argument and turned something that is really symbolic into something literal. Take Exodus 4 verses 22-24 for example. God calls Israel His first born son; does this mean that the God of Israel was married to His son? Blasphemy!
Do you see your error? You have interpreted Scripture to fit your predefined version of Judaism and in doing so have stumbled to the land of lunacy. Scripture is beautiful and full of wisdom but it isn’t hidden from you and doesn’t require stars or anything else (see Deuteronomy) to know it. You have confused symbolism with literalism. If you’re willing to learn I’m willing to teach. Let us move past the rubbish that is the god-man and find everlasting joy in the true God of Israel.
Shalom.
I do apologize for any gramma &a spelling errors above, I’m using my phone to post.
I wasn’t at all referencing suicide, being killed for your belief means you believe it enough to die for it but it doesn’t make it true. What of all the Jews the suffered so greatly at the hands of Christians, Muslims etc. that would rather die than convert. Guess their belief is truth? Oh no, because it’s not what you believe. I never said you said the New Testament was heresy and nothing you’re trying to teach me is new to me, like I said, I have been there and done that, you go read it for yourself, servingfaithfully. No amount of Torah keeping by the NT characters changes the role of the prophecied messiah in tanakh into what you perscribe to Jesus. As I said, there is absolutely nothing that requires me to believe in the messiah come once and gone to come again for salvation, nothing. I don’t know why you’d think I get all of my knowledge from the teachers you listed or videos and haven’t been studying diligently. I read scripture, I read the arguments on every side, I have read 7 books this year so far. I am in constant learning environments and prayer. One of us has been on both sides of this discussion and one of us has been on one side. It seems pretty apparent you’ve set your knowledge up on a pedestal but since you brought up Jeremiah I have a another question. How many times have you read the New Covenant prophecy that we are supposedly in but glossed over the part about no longer teaching each other about God because everyone will know Him in the new covenant? I’d comment about Ezekiel but David already said it better than I would’ve.
Andrew,
If you believe the NT, then you believe that the apostles (reading the Tanak from the beginning, not from the end backwards) were blinded to Messianic prophesies and didn’t understand He would die because those prophesies are veiled in the text. Well done! Obviously you believe at least that part of the NT. Those on the scene did not understand that Messiah would die…….does that in any way, give you some insight into our own reading of those prophesies? Surely you don’t think in our world, we are just that much smarter than the ones on the scene do you? Surely you don’t think they were just stupid with regard to Torah, the same Torah they followed their whole lives but you are that much more learned?
I mean you can’t have it both ways. Either their documented experience is true and it gives us insight into our own reading of Torah/Prophets, or it’s false and even the question/scenario you raised cannot be trusted to have happened so why ask it?
I’m going to choose the former because the latter is a complete fabrication 2000 years later with no substantiation in fact. I wrote this earlier. One of the most compelling reasons to trust the information is the eye witness testimony, their understanding of Torah and its veiled truth and their complete surrender to that Truth after they were allowed to see it by YHVH…….as we’ve discussed since.
As for your own reading of Torah that says you don’t have to believe Messiah for salvation, I beg to differ.
Ex 23:21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against Him; He will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in Him.
Psalm 2:6He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,the ends of the earth your possession.9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve YHVH with fear and celebrate His rule with trembling.12 Kiss His son, or He will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction,for His wrath can flare up in a moment.Blessed are all who take refuge in Him.
Now before you guys go making up other candidates for this prophesy, let me remind you that no human being EVER possessed the ends of the earth nor will a human being do so. Only ONE will do this and it is verified in Daniel. He is present in the throne room and simply because of the nature of what takes place there, it is not possible for this to be a human being.
Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
As to WHEN this kingdom begins?
Dan 2:44“IN THE TIME OF THOSE KINGS, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”
Daniel 9 verifies it was before the temple was destroyed. Can’t be any other candidate. He came then, at that time (through the womb of a woman “Son of Man”), and returns from heaven (also no other human candidate could do this) with a sword to execute judgment.
Isa 66:15 See, YHVH is coming with fire, and His chariots are like a whirlwind; He will bring down His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire 16 For with fire and with His sword YHVH will execute judgment on all people,
Ps 104:3 He makes the clouds His chariot and rides on the wings of the wind. (Yeshua, Son of Man IS YHVH)
Who is this “judge”? Same one that we’ve read about all along.
Ben 18:1 YHVH appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
20 Then YHVH said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before YHVH 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike.
“FAR BE IT FROM YOU! WILL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?
dmcphearson,
I didn’t mix the literal with the figurative. The Bible does that, I just relayed that information. Hosea tells us that Israel is YHVH’s “wife” and Isaiah tell us that the husband will die.
one more connection:
Zech 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
Even YHVH refers to Himself as “Me” and “Him”, the one pierced.
I suggest you guys stop listening to the doctrines of men that want to reinterpret messianic prophesies 3500 yrs later so they can try to prop up their false narrative. It’s understandable. To keep the sheep quiet, they have to try to make their case and deny what all their forefather’s believed to be true.
Messiah both comes from the womb and comes in the clouds of heaven. He both dies and reigns eternally. Tell me. How can He reign eternally and then die? Is that the order? How can He be both Son of God and Son of Man unless He came through humanity? How can He come back from heaven unless He was exalted to Heaven?
If all these Truths were veiled for those who lived in the 1st century, and those on the scene were shown the Truth by God, Himself, why do you think it would be any different for us now?
Following other gods (any doctrines of men, any at all even talmud, mishna, etc etc) is the problem throughout the Bible. Moses was not a liar. He was not into deception. He said he was told to “write it down”. He obeyed. So unless you think Moses was a complete disobedient pawn in a much broader scheme of Satan, Moses WROTE IT DOWN. He didn’t keep things to himself to orally transmit to other generations. That is such garbage!
Wow, WHAT A LEAP! I asked the question because it is a flaw in your argument, I never said I actually believe it even happened, you just read that right on in there on your behalf for ammo for your argument. And how convenient, the hole in that argument has been plugged by veiled prophecy, somehow, for some reason. As David said, I applaud your zeal, but you are misguided. I see why you believe what you believe, I see your intelligence, that is all well and good but you are making classic mistakes. Example: You believe one of the only two times Moshiach is conveniently translated into English as the definite THE Messiah, that being Daniel 9 is a proof text for Jesus. The text, properly translated says an anointed one (could be the priesthood, the alter, the nation of Israel, anything anointed) shall be cut off before the destruction of the temple, all which were. That brings us back to the other error of making up some belief that this messiah will come a second time to complete all the literal tasks the messiah is supposed to do when he comes, like build a third temple and bring world peace and universal knowledge of YHVH. These things either have to be turned into allegory or a future, non prophesied second coming has to be conveniently invented to hold onto this belief. You are well studied, I commend you for being able to argue your belief but I can’t believe you call anyone else arrogant and then make statements like, “Now before you guys go making up other candidates for this prophesy”, really? And nice verse citing but text without context is pretext. I.E. Exodus 23:20, that angel, is jesus an angel, man, man god, god? Exodus 23:20 isn’t messianic. Christianity (to believe in jesus) is the lottery ticket filled in after the numbers are announced, unveiled prophecy I guess is how you would say it yourself. Exodus 23, YHVH Speaking to isreal, “I will them deliver the nations into your hands, Pslam 2, supposedly speaking to/about THE messiah (translated here correctly as an or his anointed) “and I will make the nations your inheritance,” How are we making up another candidate when it is so clear?
I see that you have an answer for everything and that is also good and I would not expect you to be moved by my words. As I said before, I pray you do turn that corner, sooner than later.
servingfaithfully,
You’re relaying false information sadly, and for your sake I would stop doing so as it is outright blasphemy. I like how you can say “Hosea tells us that Israel is YHVH’s ‘wife'”. Great, Moses writes in the book of Exodus, from the mouth of God Himself, that Israel is His “first born son”. Which is it? Is Israel God’s wife or His son? Is God committing a sin by being in a homosexual and inscestious relationship? That is absolute blasphemy to say so and yet you continue to do just that. You’re either someone who doesn’t truly believe this nonsense and are just attempting to get a rise out of people or you truly believe this garbage, but either way you are a blasphemer against the Most High.
Instead of entering into a common sense and logical discussion you vomit nonsense on your keyboard and post it as if you are privy to some, as you stated, “veiled” information. The only way you can make an argument that some how information was kept from the Prophets is to say it was veiled and you can only say it was veiled by using the Christian bible to say this. Circle argument of the century, congrats on that! To say that we should trust the authors of the Christian bible for the reasons you’ve stated is worthless. If you’re unable to make a single argument stick, then throwing out 100 more of those arguments doesn’t make your stance any more credible.
I will be honest, I haven’t even attempted to read the remaining nonsense you’ve spewed onto this page because in reality it isn’t worth going over especially since you’re unwilling to learn. You obvious have made up your mind and you don’t want to know anything outside your little perfect HRM world. IF by some miracle you decide you wish to truly understand Tanakh and learn then ask me and I will help. We can do Skype calls or Google Hangouts and go over each of the topics 1 at a time to really see what the Tanakh has to say. If you don’t then farewell but my prayer is you stop the blasphemy.
@servingfaithfully,
I decided to humor myself and go over your verses and point to your continued error. You seem to forget there exists such a thing called context.
Exodus 23 verses 20 – 22 “Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. “Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him. “But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
This passage continues to speak about entering into the promise land and Israel defeating the inhabitants there. This is not a messianic prophecy about some god-man that you’ve filled your mind with. This is actually about an angel/messenger of God, not Yeshua. Context is key!
Your interpretation and translation of Psalm 2:11 is incorrect and Rabbi Tovia has a great video you should look up and give the time to watch, listen carefully to, think on, pray on, and study about.
Again, your interpretation and translation of Daniel 7 is also incorrect. I’m seeing a trend with you.
You continue with very poor hermeneutics with Daniel 9 saying that it proves some nonsense about the messiah coming before the temple being destroyed? Again, I’ve offered to teach you what the text is literally saying but you need to be willing to set aside your Yeshua glasses for just a moment.
Not sure what you’re getting at with Isaiah 66 but okay.
Psalm 104 doesn’t use the ‘son of man’ language and doesn’t mention any person by the name of Yeshua.
There are quite a few judges in scripture. Now if you’re talking about the ultimate Judge then that is the God of Israel. Again, what does this have to do with some crazy god-man?
Where in Gen 18 does it say God was one of those three men? Again, take off the Yeshua glasses and simply read the text.
You make such lofty claims but you cannot make these claims apart from the Christian bible. Truly sad you don’t have the zeal to learn but instead the zeal to spread lies and deceit. Shame on you for your ill spirit towards the Almighty.
Also you may want to look into translations especially as it pertains to Psalm 2:12 the Latin Vulgate translates the verse: “Embrace discipline, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and you perish from the just way”
Targum – “Accept instruction lest he be angry, and you lose your way;”
Adam Clark Commentary –
“Kiss the Son, lest he be angry – It is remarkable that the word son (בר bar, a Chaldee word) is not found in any of the versions except the Syriac, nor indeed any thing equivalent to it.
The Chaldee, Vulgate, Septuagint, Arabic, and Ethiopic, have a term which signifies doctrine or discipline: “Embrace discipline, lest the Lord be angry with you,” etc. This is a remarkable case, and especially that in so pure a piece of Hebrew as this poem is, a Chaldee word should have been found; rb bar, instead of b ben, which adds nothing to the strength of the expression or the elegance of the poetry. I know it is supposed that rb bar is also pure Hebrew, as well as Chaldee; but as it is taken in the former language in the sense of purifying, the versions probably understood it so here. Embrace that which is pure; namely, the doctrine of God”
The translation of bar that means kiss the son is Aramaic. No other aramaic is found is Psalms. In Tanakh the hebrew word bar is translated 15 times as grain and 7 times it means pure or purity as just before Psalm 2.
No agenda though I am sure…
Im just waiting for the finger pointing and howls of “synagogue of satan” and “your all sons of satan” claims to start flying.
BTW It was absolutely mind blowing to watch that clip on the word b’reshit. That is getting close to asylum internship material and i cant understand what drives people to play such blatantly childish games with Torah. It seemed his target audience were toddlers, so no wonder that religion has churned out so many deliriously ignorant members.
Servingfaithfully you are doing the opposite of your name by not studying Torah. You are allowing church derived interpretations to form your critical beliefs which you have been told over and over are incorrect according to the Hebrew text.
The people who study the Hebrew text are not trying to trick you, yet you reject what is being said outright and just keep marching on with your own easily avoidable mistakes.
At what point do you accept that Gods word trumps the problematic NT that you are trying to salvage piece by piece?
All of your arguments are from bad churchy english translations and are quite old and easily shown to be contrary to Torah. But it seems you dont care or dont want to know. At least your in the right place at T2U i guess.
Good luck with your journey.
So let me get this straight.
The word “malak” translated as angel but in actuality means “messenger”, not only cannot mean messenger to you guys but in your opinion, the angelic realm has the power to pardon transgressions?
Hosea, by calling Israel “wife” is not to be believed? Hosea is a liar? and/or YHVH is incenstuous for using both analogies?
So it’s not “son” its “discipline”. YHVH will make the nations “discipline’s” inheritance? seriously?
I didn’t say it was veiled…….YHVH says it!
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Nice try guys but your own “vomit” (meant for David) stinks. Your arguments don’t hold up in the context.
ummm, David, Isaiah said the above (just in case you don’t check context)
Trying to argue these “finer points” such as the true meaning of Daniel 9 or Psalms, is really futile. It is like expecting to prove Star Trek is true by saying Scotty DID prevent the engines from blowing up though some engineering marvel.
The entire NT and christian doctrine rests on three FALSE premises:
1) Original sin permanently condemned humanity to hell
2) shedding of blood is required for “atonement”
3) substitutionary atonement allows one to remove sin from another.
Once these points are understood, the is NO NEED FOR JESUS and everything else falls away.
I give as much credence to Paul as I do to Capt Kirk.
My friends use to argue ENDLESSLY over whether some comment uttered by Kirk or Scotty or Spock was valid or whether some solution to a crisis was even possible. They would actually QUOTE OTHER EPISODES or pull out books about the technical specification of the Enterprise to prove their point!! BUT, EITHER WAY, IT IS STILL JUST A TV SHOW!!!
Like when I was a kid, when ever we asked my dad why or how some character did something in a show, he would answer, “Because it was in the SCRIPT. ”
The NT is no different.
When people ask, “Well why did the apostles die instead of admitting it was all a lie”, I say, “Because it was in the SCRIPT.” It’s like, “Of course the hero wins, IT IS A STORY!! Written by MEN!!ll”
No christian worth his choir robe would give the book of mormon or the koran an OUNCE of respect, yet they believe the NT. Why?
It is like believing Battlestar Galactica is “just a TV show” but Star Trek is real!!
And showing me that Scotty saved the Enterprise by some miracle of engineering does NOTHING to “prove” Star Trek is more real than Battlestar Galactica.
Telling me a voice from heaven said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!” is no more valid evidence that the NT is “inspired” than showing me schematics of the Enterprise proves Star Trek is real.
The NT, the book of mormon, Star Trek and the Hobbit were all written by men with agendas (some more evil than others!!)
Lastly for those who are trying to follow this thread, that convoluted mess with regard to “son” that Andrew wrote above, is really quite simple.
bet, resh (bar) and bet, nun (ben) are both translated as “son”. The difference in the two is not the vowels that the Masoric text inserted , since those vowel markings were not present prior to that time. The slight difference is the difference in a resh and a nun…or the length of the stroke. In handwriting script that a scribe would be transcribing, it is quite conceivable that they could mix them up as the generations of scribes continued. If you don’t know how, look up a resh and a nun. And bar is the same in aramaic and hebrew.
All this to say that even you guys don’t believe your own nonsense. Ever used the word “BAR mitsvah”?
It is quite futile arguing with someone that now blames the Hebrew text and or the scribes for allowing NT lovers to hold fast to their beliefs.
How do you show someone the truth when they obviously reject what God has written and prefer what men have written?
To use ones own poor knowledge of Hebrew to invalidate the Hebrew bible itself seems common place for these brainwashed christians, while at the same time forgiving the NT of its never ending contradictions and fatal flaws.
These stiff necked christians seem to be a dime a dozen these days which speaks volumes for the coercive powers of the NT on the unprotected mind. The medicine required to inoculate oneself from being at risk of brainwashing from the fairy tale story line of the NT is to study Torah!
Somehow servingfaithfully has navigated the NT, rejected some parts, embraced other parts and then made stuff up to smooth over the incoherent story that is left.
Good luck servingfaithfully, you gonna need it!
And I’m still blown away at how he/she calls anyone else arrogant with how he/she speaks. K! I love the Star Trek analogy, I chuckled, well said Elskid. I’m going to go sulk on my putrid evil convoluted vomit and unbelief now, tootleoo!
servingfaithfully,
At this point I just don’t know whether you are purposely avoiding topics in an effort to spread falsehoods or if you’re genuinely incapable of having a long and coherent conversation. You’ve blatantly avoided whole portions of what I’ve stated and some how come out the other side putting words into my mouth. I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt prior to this but I now just believe you don’t even understand your own drivel nor do you wish to. You have designed a worldview that you find quite comfortable and don’t seek to be humble in any way and instead set your “knowledge” on a high pedestal and lash out at everyone around you when they are offering to teach you. It is truly a shame.
You didn’t get anything straight earlier. Who said that “mal’ak” didn’t mean messenger? You said “The word “malak” translated as angel but in actuality means “messenger”, not only cannot mean messenger to you guys but in your opinion, the angelic realm has the power to pardon transgressions?” I wish to know who has stated this above? This is why I’ve written the above paragraph, due to you simply not being capable of having a coherent conversation.
I have never said Hosea is a liar, I believe quite the contrary. You are the one who is taking the parabolic and figurative statement and making it literal. There is something the Hebrew scholars call p’shat, which is to mean that they are reading the plain meaning of the text, figurative and literal in the context it was written. You call me out for lacking a contextual awareness but you’ve shown time and time again that you don’t know right from left, up from down, nor a Yod from a Vav. The Prophets are painting a picture with words; it isn’t literally to mean that God and Israel are now married and are husband and wife, male and female. Otherwise, we would have serious issues due to Moses writing the words of God Himself saying that Israel was God’s first born son. These are both true statement but they are both figurative. You’ve even called it an analogy yourself in your response to me. THEREFORE, Israel is not the LITERAL wife of God such as Israel is not the LITERAL first born son of God. These statements are made to convey a meaning to the people and the audience it was written/spoken to.
You again lack understanding of the Scripture and bend and twist to your liking with your understanding of Isaiah 6. Woe to you. You’ve simply plucked a passage from its context. What does the very next passage say after these things? Please read, but don’t stop, continue and read the entire book, may it be like sweet honey to you and you see the truth that you so desperately run from.
You’ve still not accepted my offer to teach you. I am willing to spend time out of my day to meet with you virtually on Skype or Google Hangouts to discuss and teach you where your error is.
Now onto more errors you’ve presented. You don’t really understand Psalm 2, this is obvious. In verse 7 of Psalm 2 you find the phrase “He said to Me, ‘You are My Son'” The word used here for “son” is ben which is comprised of a bet and a nun. Further down in Psalm 2 in verse 12 we find the word “bar” which can mean son but it would be odd to use two variations of a word in the same Psalm. This passage can also rightfully be translated as “do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way” instead of “kiss the son”. Linguistics would tell is it is probably the former as the word “ben” is already used in this Psalm to portray “son” therefore it fits for the “bar” to mean purity or instruction. There are some Hebrew scholars that choose the rendering to be “son” and follow the interpretation that the “son” spoken of is the same son of God found countless times in the Tanakh, Israel. I will go another step further and say that even if this passage is about the Messiah, it still does not make Yeshua the Messiah and it surely does not make Yeshua God. Sorry, but this isn’t about your god-man.
In spite of you trying to show how similar a Resh and a Nun are, there is zero proof that this was simply a “mistake” by translators of the Hebrew text. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to hold the Mastoretic text in an ill light due to it not agreeing with you in this instance. This seems odd as I’m sure all the english translations that you are surely using rely on this text and if you picked up any Hebrew Tanakh you would be relying on this same text to give you guidance in the different between words that share the exact same constants.
I’ll end with some clarification for your sake, I am not an Orthodox Jew, nor do I hold to the Oral Law found in the Mishnah. I don’t know why you continue to make wild allegations about others here but you’ve formed a very bad habit out of it. You constantly misrepresent what others have written in hopes to stir up strife, which I’m assuming so that you may “win” some intellectual war you seem to be having. Let me assure you, your war is very much in vain as it is with yourself, ultimately. I don’t wish to battle you over what you believe the Christian bible says the Tanakh says but I am willing to teach what the Tanakh says on its own. This is the last time I’m offering this to you, if you continue your blasphemy then it is on your hands. Like elskid said, trying to argue these “finer points” is futile, especially when your approach to the Tanakh is through the disgusting abomination of human sacrifice found in the Christian religion. Farewell, my prayer is you will leave the wickedness and blasphemy of your Yeshua religion.
Shalom.
Above it seems I’ve missed a word that was misspelled. In the second to last paragraph the word is not “constants” but simply “consonants” which would be referring to the base letter of the Hebrew alphabet without the vowel markings.
Andrew, David. If a person is this convinced of a narrative like “Y’shua is THE messiah” (and a lot of other things) and have simply mastered all of the tired christian pericopes to bend the Tanakh to fit their conclusion it is best not to try to reason with them. The Jews have a phase for circular logic, it goes: “this argument has no head and it has no tail…” As Rav Skobac says they shoot their arrow into the tree and are happy explain at length about the accuracy of their shot as they paint the bullseye around it! (Because someone convinced them that this is what hermanudics is supposed to be, BTW)
According to the text, YHVH never spoke of a body “hidden things” that his people Israel were to seek after, or anything about the the spirit world for that matter. In fact the pursuit of mystical knowledge was likely forbidden since we see admonitions against sorcery, witchcraft necromancy, and fortune telling. God taught us simply to live a righteous life according to HIS ways and to be blessed for it. The rest of it is to simply live your life! That is more than a challenge for us HOWEVER it is not always exciting. What we DO with our lives is supposed to be the exciting part. But we live in a knowledge worshiping, Greco-Roman culture. The focus there is not on the challenge to live a good life in Torah, but to rather busy ourselves with endless intellectual diversions that have no solution so as not to concern ourselves with the things that God actually gave us here like our families, communities and His Creation.
I find it deplorable how Rome took the faith of the Jews and co-opted parts of it, twisting its writings to transform the story of a Jewish teacher into a man-god. It’s no wonder their fallacies and circular-logic are found around every corner of all the counterfeits that came from the most pervasive man-made religion in history. Oh well, we all know that evil does it’s best work by starting with something good. (When I say evil I mean the ambitions and avarice of men who will not to walk according to God’s ways and the golden rule, not man’s contrivance of “the devil”).
Trent, if you’ve read anything I’ve said, I have not quoted the NT once in all of my arguments. I have brought forth the evidence from Tanak. You are the one ignoring your Father’s words and trying to make them into something else……which is obviously proven ridiculous…..even to you. That is why you have nothing left to wield except to rant unsubstantiated.
David, tell me you’re kidding……..
After everything I’ve written you think there is even a possibility that I would need or want you to teach me anything? I have a TEACHER!
Just because I didn’t come to a crossroads and deny Messiah, I actually waited for my Teacher to make sense of what I thought were distortions, you guys instead took a sharp turn and have been derailed. If we just take the Tanak, how much more clear can it be that you are simply denying what is there on the page. I don’t have to prove “bar” is son, the language itself proves it both then and now and the rest of the Tanak proves it. If you have a problem with how Tanak is written (since that is your argument) take it up with YHVH. Don’t stomp your feet and throw a fit and tell Him He is a liar because He didn’t write it the way you want to read it. Did you bother to read Daniel 7? The one who inherits the nations of Ps 2 (AND ITS NOT “DISCIPLINE”) is the one in Daneil 7 as well. He is both Son of Man and Son of God. He is both YHVH Himself (“Me” of Zech 12) and the bodily form of YHVH that we’ve read about all along (“Him” of Zech 12). These things are undeniable! YHVH is making these analogies, not me. I’m just not ignoring them to step over what is right there in the text.
I will say hats off to you though for not following the idolatrous mess going on with michael and tovia, although I believe I’ve only singled them out as guilty of that idolatry on this thread. However, if you have set them up as tellers of truth, you are once again ignoring your Father. HE SAYS they are blind……and yes, you are right about Isaiah and the context of the 6th chapter. He is opening the eyes of many to surrender to what is right there in the Tanak. Why do you think all this is happening now? The curse is lifted. The northern tribes were cursed for 390 yrs (Ezek) and they did not repent after that. Judgment therefore is 7 times 390 or 2730 yrs. (Lev 26:18) Count that out. When were they taken over by Assyria and when did that judgment end?
Here’s the thing. The sages of Judaism ALL wrote of both the suffering Messiah and the reigning Messiah. Their writings date back to Babylon for heaven’s sake. For people to go back now and claim this is a “christian” doctrine, is simply ignorant of the facts. I guess you just didn’t get your bottle of milk the way you wanted it so you threw a temper tantrum at the Most High. I would say “good luck” to you back but luck won’t have anything to do with it!
CKDees,
Rome didn’t teach a “man-god”, the TANAK teaches it! Are you really so blinded by your offense of the right side of the Bible that you can’t see what is there in the Tanak?
How about all of you back up for one second. This exercise will not harm you in any way, it will either prove you wrong or prove you right. Back up from your skepticism and go back to that place where you see people in the NT opposing Torah. Stop right there every single time and see if it’s Torah or if it’s doctrines and teachings of men that are being opposed. If its Torah, congratulations, you are doing what your Father says in Deut 13. But……..if its doctrines of men (and that may take some humility on your part to clearly discern), then you have misunderstood all this time…..in fact…..Christianity has misunderstood for 1700 years. The answer IS NOT to turn to michael, tovia, jono, jason, and others like you guys. EVEN IF what you say could be proven (which obviously it cannot), but even if you could, the whole issue is that you guys want other guys (mere men) to teach you. YHVH said from the beginning that you should listen to Him. He is your only God, not the teachings of men, especially those blinded by idolatry. There is no other Moses either. When Korah tried filling those shoes, look what happened.
I suggest you ask your Father (if you know Him at all) how to make sense of all of this. Denying what the plain text says is not your answer.
Trent, before you jump on me, I have not quoted the NT once in all of my arguments to substantiate Messiah as both God and man, that He will both reign and die, that He’s been on the scene all along and that more than one Prophet speaks of it, etc. I have quoted the NT to show you where those guys also quoted Tanak and to show you how their words are being misconstrued. Heaven help us if you start a new argument about the semantics of what I wrote……K?
David, my tongue in cheek comment about “luck” should have gone to Trent…..K?
…..and the “K?” is for Andrew
wait wait wait…..I can hear it now. I just reread the above. You guys are going to have a hay day with what I just wrote and tell me that I am listening to Star Trek commentary by trying to make sense of the NT. I get your point and it is funny. But here’s what you are ignoring.
I have offered you the exact same scriptures that all the sages read to come to their conclusions of a suffering Messiah that is both God and man. To be very clear, the TANAK says this…regardless of there was ever a NT.
In 2016, if we are going to listen to commentary we have choices.
-We can listen to idolatrous judaism (or you can) but YHVH says He has blinded them.
-We can listen to those who used to believe the NT but didn’t bother going to their Father for answers, instead went to the idolatrous rabbis for answers (or you can) but they ignore what the Torah actually says and reinterpret the clear text IN THE TANAK regardless of their problems with the NT.
-We can listen to those living prior to the 1st century (as I wrote above) and see how their thinking and study of Torah conclude some of these issues in their minds…..obviously coming to the same conclusions about Messiah that declare Him to be everything I’ve already written (which is a very important point you ignore).
-We can listen to Torah abiding, YHVH serving, Jews in the 1st century who lived this out and wrote about it. If we’re going to listen to this last group, first off we have to understand what they’re saying. That is the point of my first post above It will require a re-examination of the text to understand what they wrote before claiming their opinion doesn’t matter and is not to be considered.
Even if you believe the NT is wrong in its conclusions, why are their impressions of what happened any less relevant than those in this generation who were not even on the scene? Is it because you don’t think they came from a Torah foundation? If so, you’d be wrong. If you cannot find one single time that they disregarded Torah, slandered it or thought/taught that it was not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, (after you actually understand what they are saying) why doesn’t that matter? Why is the opinions of those guys not worth considering but guys 2000 yrs later who get up every morning and go through the absurdly ridiculous doctrines made up in the minds of men, somehow their opinions are more relevant? I just don’t get it from a pure common sense perspective! ANYONE “adding” to the commands of Torah is cursed! Why are you listening to them?
There is not one shred of evidence that says one of the NT guys is not real or what he says didn’t happen…..not one shred! You trust the evidence of others with that exact same circumstance. You believe the writing’s of others with not one shred of proof they even existed. But for some reason, if a guy writes about the Messiah, you just call him a figment of imagination, an invention of Rome, a hollywood script. I’m simply asking you why your standard is hypocritical and why your accepted voice is the one your Father has cursed?
TL;DR
JK. “If you know Him at all”, wow, the arrogance. Anyway, you make it seem as though no one wrestled through those issues and just flipped a switch one day. It wasn’t a decision taken lightly and for some of us took quite a long time of diligent prayer and yearning for the will of the Father in our lives, don’t sit there and put us in the same box. You THINK you know the truth, but using the exact same methodology you claim is correct, not being taught by men, others come to a completely different conclusion, honestly and without contempt for the “right side” but with sincere yearning for truth. To you, because it is different than your truth, something is flawed in our thinking and our hearts and our relationship with our creator, it couldn’t possibly be you, because you said so. Take it as a win if you like but as is mentioned above, reasoning is not turning out to be fruitful, unfortunately. That is not because we wont bend to your will or you to ours but that it is turning into a bit of a measuring contest and the overall attitude is not a good one. All, may you be blessed!
You dont have to quote the NT to show that you have adopted the NT narrative. Your mangod arguments have a slight hint of NT coercion. (<—-sarcasm)
You just cant seem to let go of that ticket to heaven they lied to you about, by denouncing that mangod they also convinced you of.
Is it the ticket to heaven or the avoidance of hell you want most?
These are the two main drivers of christians to believe what is preached to them.
These concepts differ between Jewish and xtian understanding. Do you know the difference?
Also lay off criticizing our hosts and their guests with your childish accusations and assumptions. They are helping us non Hebrew readers understand Gods word without running the gauntlet to believe the manipulated english translations. No wonder you dislike what they do. There is absolutely no way to understand the richness of the Hebrew bible from an english only reading person. I need to understand Gods word to understand God. God does not teach scripture to churchies, particularly to disrespect his chosen people or chase after other Gods.
Some have argued for a long time that the NT turns its readers anti-semite with its degrading language and blame attributed to the Jews, Rabbis and Sanhedrin all as one. You obviously know when the Greek writings blame one group for anothers sin?
You said " a suffering Messiah that is both God and man. To be very clear, the TANAK says this "
Please entertain us some more…. let the cherry picking begin !
BTW can you show us in Hebrew with the corresponding translations and comparisons for the english words you are about to butcher.
Then can we emulate your response (excuses) if we dont like what we read, by claiming the text might be wrong, you know, those tricky scribes drank a lot of booze that day, maybe they slipped a bit, its possible they forgot what word they were writing, maybe a donkey ate that page, etc etc
Then you say " There is not one shred of evidence that says one of the NT guys is not real or what he says didn’t happen…..not one shred! "
Hmmm this a dangerous precedent to use lack of evidence as evidence itself. It seems you have read the book on christian apologetics by using this tactic or argument.
You have missed the fundamentals of Torah. The Torah dispels your arguments easily.
You seem to be listening to ignorant men on the interwebs about jebus aka yeshua and coming here telling us that God is teaching you.. hehe
Its quite clear that is a lie or a delusion.
Servingfaithfully,
I find it odd how you express that you know the truth of Tanakh due to The God of Israel opening your eyes but yet you have such a haughty attitude towards others and even go as far as to talk down to them with a prideful arrogance I only seem to encounter in the Yeshua movement. I’ve tried countless times to enter into a normal discussion with you but instead you jump from point to point and can’t stay on a single topic long enough to really delve into it. It is almost like you’re avoiding really reading the text because you’ve already made up your mind what you believe it says. IF we are all in error, like you continue to scream, why attack people instead of entering into a discussion? Why wouldn’t you take someone up on being ‘taught’ their understanding of Scripture in hopes of helping them see the truth? You don’t want that do you? My only conclusion of you wishing to avoid an in-depth conversation is due to you fearing being wrong.
I’ve made a very long journey from the pews of a Pentecostal church, to the ivory tower of Reformed theology, a quick run past the HRM movement to finally finding rest and joy in the teachings of the Hebrew faith. So don’t think for one second you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t have any sense or isn’t well learned on the above topics.
Where have I denied a Messiah? I do know that the Tanakh speaks of a coming Messiah. We agree on this but we disagree on who this Messiah is greatly. You say we are denying what is directly on the page but if the curse is lifted, as you said, then why are we making such a grave mistake about the above? Seems strange to say in one breath that it is plainly visible then the next say we are blinded due to a curse. What hope do we have then if it is a curse? You offer strange explanations for things and instead of responding to a specific thing written you contort my responses to fit an agenda you’ve attempted to succeed in from the start of this conversation.
Who said you must prove “bar” means son? I’ve stated that there are Jewish commentaries that agree with that translation. There are even portions in the Tanakh itself that has bar translated as son and everyone would agree these are correct. The point I made was that in the very same Psalm, the word ben and the word bar are both used therefore, linguistically it would make more sense for bar to mean purity rather than son due to ben already being present. It is strange for the writer of the Psalm to use two variations of son in the same passages. Even if it does mean son though and your translation is correct it still does not make it Messianic but if it were Messianic it doesn’t make it about Yeshua. The burden of proof lies with what you’re teaching but alas I’m sure you’ll say that you don’t have to prove a thing due to God already proving it. Shame.
Again, you’re putting words in my mouth and saying that my argument is that I have a problem with how Tanakh is written. This just isn’t true as I’ve literally never stated or alluded to this. I’m a very reasonable person but your continual attempts to misrepresent me in my writings is getting to a point of no return. I suggest you end your mischaracterizations of me and attempt an intelligent discussion or simply leave as it would be obvious you lack some very basic logic.
Now as far as Daniel 7 is concerned, it is understood as a Messianic passage by pretty much everyone I would say. To say that the “son of man” is Yeshua and is also God is very odd indeed. I don’t see how you can connect the person in Daniel 7 to that of God. It is clear that the Ancient of Days is the God of Israel and the son of man is someone else entirely. Here is the passages you are referring to:
Daniel 7:13 – 14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before Him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
David was promised in 2 Sam 7 the following : “Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever”. It seems to fit perfectly with Daniel 7 and Psalm 2. Both of those, in the plain reading, are saying that the Messiah will come form the House of David and that this mortal man will rule the kingdom that was promised to David as one that endures forever. It does not in any place say this person is Yeshua and that this person is also God. Just for educational purposes, where else in the Tanakh is God ever called the son of man? I would suggest that the term son of man is always speaking of a mortal human that is not God.
According to your understanding of Scripture, since the northern Tribes were taken into exile around 575 – 556 BCE (to the best of my knowledge) but secular sources say it was more around 733 or 740 BCE. So if we take your explanation with the Jewish dating that would put the end of this multiplied curse to around the year 2174 CE or if you take the ending of the curse according to the secular dating it would have been about year 2000 CE. I’m sure you’re convinced of the secular dating therefore you believe the curse was just lifted in the year 2000 CE or thereabouts. I’m not sure what this really has to do with what we are currently discussing but thought I would address it because it is obviously important to you.
No, not all of the sages of Judaism wrote of two Messiahs, so you’re incorrect about this. There is a belief that runs in Judaism about Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David but again this doesn’t prove your take on Yeshua as the god-man. Also, your continued use of ad hominem attacks by saying we are essentially babies throwing a tantrum is not giving you any credibility.
You ask us to take a step back and evaluate the Christian bible and check to see where the authors are opposing Torah. I simply can look at any time Paul or any other writer points to the divinity of Yeshua. This breaks the very first of the ten in that we are NOT to place anyone in the place of the God of Israel. Each time it says that Yeshua offers salvation is counter to Torah. I submit to you this is all contrary to Torah and the Tanakh. Sadly, you’ll go on with putting words in my mouth claiming I’m against the God of Israel because your argument hold no water. I have zero issues with the Tanakh or with the One and only God of Israel, YHVH. He is God and there is NO other.
I have no problem with taking what the 1st century Christians said into account but you also must be aware of their bias. They have an agenda, this you cannot deny, to prove that Yeshua is the Messiah and God. Therefore, we as good students must look at what is written in light of the known bias and take it back to Tanakh to see if it stand worthy, it does not. I wouldn’t take the history of how the Second World War was started from a Nazi historian due to them being biased and most assuredly probably pointing to the Jew as being the cause. To be a good student you must understand your bias and the bias of those who have written history
This takes me to my final point: We obviously cannot continue this discussion because it is very likely you’ll continue your attacks on me as a person and continue to put words in my mouth in an effort to seize some invisible victory. Continue your practice of your faith and go on with yourself. You don’t have the capacity nor the humility to teach with kindness and respect of other humans who are all made in the image of the Most High. That is a shame because if you did have the truth you would be causing more harm than good in that you attack people rather than being kind and leading them to the truth. This is what I’ve attempted all above in every response to you. It hasn’t worked with you and I fear never will. Farewell, enjoy your hate and spitefulness towards others who view Scripture differently than you. I would end with Shalom but I don’t think that is something you’re after in this life or the next.
I did not proof the above, I’ve already spent too much time on this single post. I apologize for any grammatical and spelling mistakes I have made.