6 Comments

1. 

   Petra says

   Is it our fault that Rabbinic Judaism and those that follow it are blind, rejected their own Moshiah Yehoshua ben Yoseph, and why? Just as Christianity does, they would loose their power, their control of the sheeple and their money. It was for this reason they rejected Yeshua and its exactly the same reason why they reject Him today – Blindness. Who says that He will open our eyes to understand His Word? Not man! He opens hearts and minds to understand His Word / Torah. The day i listen to a Rabbinic Jew telling me how to understand Hebrew and His word will only be when He returns and restores their hearts and minds, and removes the veil from their eyes so what they do teach is Truth based upon His Written Torah, not some fictional fairy tale from the Mishnah or Tulmud.

   Shalom u’vrakhah
   Gavriel

2. 

   Sophiee Saguy says

   When shown that the T’nach does not support the idea of Jesus as a messiah (anointed king or priest) let alone G-d some missionaries will fall back on the chestnut that the Jews are blind and can’t “see” the truth.

   2 Corinthians 3:12‑16 in the Christian bible says that a veil lies over the heart of the Jews from the time Moses “put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.” Corinthians goes on to say that when a person is a Christian that veil is “taken away.”

   This quote actually reverses what the Torah tells us.

   In Sh’mot / Exodus 34 we are told that when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, his shining with a brilliant light. Still, Moses taught the Jews and it was only “When Moses finished speaking with them, he placed a hood over his face” (34:33).

   The Torah tells us the OPPOSITE of what 2 Corinthians claims. Read lines 34-35 of Sh’mot Exodus “Whenever Moses came before God to speak with Him, he would remove the hood until he was ready to leave. He would then go out and speak to the Israelites, [telling them] what he had been commanded. The Israelites would see that the skin of Moses’ face was glowing brilliantly. Moses would then replace the hood over his face until he would [once again] speak with G-d.”

   So the claim that “the Jews are blind” is false. Corinthians reverses what the Torah tells us. Moses was uncovered when he spoke with the Jews.

   Another false missionary “fallback” is that the Rabbis changed everything (see the quote from Petra that “Rabbinic Judaism and those who follow it. . .” The Rabbis have not changed the Judaism, whereas the missionaries and Jesus did just that. Take, for example, the mitzvah to honor one’s father and mother.” Jesus told his followers to dishonor their parents.

   Quote from Matthew 8:22, a man’s father is dying and Jesus tells the man to leave his dying father stating “Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” The man is to dishonor his dying father and then not return to sit shiva or to bury him???

   Quote from Matthew 10:34-37 ““Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. . . “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.”

   Jesus turns his own mother away when she seeks him out, speaking disrespectfully of her. . .

   So who is changing the mitzvot in the bible — the rabbis or Jesus?

   I highly recommend reading http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/ which goes into detail explaining that Rabbinic Judaism is a way for missionaries to try to claim that Jews today are not truly observant and is false. Rabbis are teachers, there has been an unbroken chain of Jewish teachers from Moses to today. . .

3. 

   Sophiee Saguy says

   BTW, Gavriel wrote “The day i listen to a Rabbinic Jew telling me how to understand Hebrew and His word will only be when He returns and restores their hearts and minds.” How does he even read Hebrew then since a person can’t even read Hebrew without the knowledge given by the Rabbis?

   How can one even READ the Torah without an oral law given to us from the Rabbis? There are no vowels in the Torah!! To even read Hebrew one must learn from the oral law.

   The Babylonian Talmud tells a story of a man who wanted to convert to Judaism. He went to Rabbi Hillel and said:

   “Convert me on condition that I accept the Written but not the Oral Law.”

   The famous Rabbi Hillel had patience and he didn’t even argue — he agreed to teach the man.

   The first day, Hillel taught him the first four letters of the Hebrew alphabet: aleph, bet, gimel, dalet.

   The next day the man came back and this time Hillel taught him the same letters in reverse order: dalet, gimel, bet, aleph.

   “But yesterday,” protested the man, “you taught me the opposite.”

   “You see,” said Hillel, “you have to rely on me even to learn the alphabet. Rely on me also when it comes to the Oral Law.” (Shabbat 31a).

   It is impossible to even be able to read the Torah without the oral teachings.

   So Gavriel wouldn’t have a bible to read without the rabbis!

   He also ignores the teachings of Jesus who told his followers to listen to the Pharisees who “sit in the seat of Moses.” The Rabbis are the inheritors of the Pharisees.

   From the Being Jewish website:

   To demonstrate, I will cite some examples of Laws from the Written Torah that are completely incomprehensible without knowledge of the Oral Tradition.

   When the Bible tells us (Lev. 20:14) to take together four species on the first day of Succos, which four species are meant, and what are we supposed to do with them?

   The prohibition of Chelev (fat) (Lev. 7:24) leaves us uninformed as to which fat is included in the category of Chelev, and which are Shumin (fat) and therefore permitted.

   Which blood is forbidden, (Lev. 7:26) and how do we purge the meat of it?

   What are Totaphot? (Ex. 13:16) If that means Tefillin, what exactly are Tefillin? How are they made, and how are they “bound as a sign upon your hand?”

   Which work is forbidden on the Sabbath, and which is permitted?

   “You shall not cook a young animal in its mother’s milk” is stated three times in the Bible. Why? The Oral Law explains why. It also explains the seemingly odd wording of the commandment.

   Most Hebrew words change their meaning when pronounced differently. Without the Oral Tradition, how can we determine the true meaning of the words of the Hebrew Scriptures, written as they were without vowels?

   Gavriel may think he doesn’t need the rabbis and is waiting around for Jesus to return — but he is actually totally reliant on the teachings of the rabbis — even those ones he rejects out of hand.

4. 

   Darren says

   Psa 119:18 Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy Torah.

   – The New Testament epically fails in opening ones eyes to the Hebrew Torah. Christ / Jesus / Yeshua “died for our sins” in accordance with which “Scriptures”, the Greek and Roman pagan ones?:

   1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

   – The Torah of the Hebrew Scriptures clearly states that every man shall die for his own sin:

   Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

   2Ch 25:4 But he put not their children to death, but did according to that which is written in the Torah in the book of Moses, as the YHVH commanded, saying: ‘The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.’

   – The Torah also tells us that our Creator has granted His creation the ability and option to rule over sin and death. Christianity tells us that we can’t possibly keep the commandments and focuses on death, Judaism teaches that we can live in the Torah and focuses on life.

   Gen 4:7 If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over it.

   Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

   Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

5. 

   ShoutedTheDustSpeck says

   “– The Torah also tells us that our Creator has granted His creation the ability and option to rule over sin and death. Christianity tells us that we can’t possibly keep the commandments and focuses on death, Judaism teaches that we can live in the Torah and focuses on life” – Darren

   I was working this through in writing, study and notes a couple of days ago, but you summarized everything I tried to get down in two sentences and much more elegantly. Someday I hope I will be so concise.

   I love listening to Michael. It is kind of painful, however, because I keep thinking that there cannot possibly be more ways to twist and turn history, but then he brings another point where people have. I don’t want to believe that there are people in the world who would brave enough to alter what the Creator of the Universe conveyed, knowing the truth. Perhaps some did it innocently, but it is likely that a few did it intentionally. The more Michael and Jono speak and the more I learn and read on my own, the less that is left to work with in the text. I just want to know what really happened, no more smoke and mirrors and no more asking people to base their entire being on them.

6. 

   Dave says

   Sophiee,

   You attempted to make the argument that Yeshua taught against the laws of Moses above…you said:

   “Quote from Matthew 8:22, a man’s father is dying and Jesus tells the man to leave his dying father stating “Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” The man is to dishonor his dying father and then not return to sit shiva or to bury him???

   Quote from Matthew 10:34-37 ““Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. . . “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.”

   Let me deal with Matthew 8:22 first-

   1- It does not say the mans father was dying. You added that it. His father could have been late in life for all we know.

   2- You seem to forget the way Elijah dealt with Elisha:

   19So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing, with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth; and Elijah passed over unto him, and cast his mantle upon him. 20And he left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said: ****‘Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow thee****.’ And he said unto him: ‘***Go back; for what have I done to thee***?’ 21And he returned from following him, and took the yoke of oxen, and slew them, and boiled their flesh with the instruments of the oxen, and gave unto the people, and they did eat. Then he arose, and went after Elijah, and ministered unto him. 1 Kings 19: 19-21

   Elijah didn’t even let Elisha go back and say bye to his parents!! Was Elijah teaching him not to honor his parents??

   Matt 10: 34-37

   This has nothing to do with teaching people to dishonor their parents. Look at the previous verses:

   21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

   23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

   This is about persecution coming for those who follow Yeshua and turn back to ONLY the Torah. Yeshua taught against the oral commands which were added. He was saying that His message would cause people to be hated by even family members! He never said to dishonor our fathers and mothers like you claim.

   Yeshua’s stance on obeying father and mothers:

   1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the **commandment of God** by your tradition? 4For **God commanded**, saying, ****Honour thy father and mother****: and, He that curseth father or mother, ***let him die the death***. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15: 1-9

   Yeshua clearly believed in the command to honor our fathers. He even takes the time to remind people that this sin is worth of THE DEATH PENALTY BY STONING!!! It was the Pharisees who were teaching people to dishonor their parents by giving their wealth to religious leaders INSTEAD OF THEIR PARENTS.