Jono & Jason – Passover Lamb or Passover Man?
Listen as Jono & Jason highlight the Torah concerning the Passover and compare it to cross-referenced New Testament passages that claim Passover connections to Jesus.
Join us for this year’s Tanakh Tour of Israel!
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then please tell me: How do you reconcile the fact that this verse CLEARLY says that Elohim will provide HIMSELF a lamb…. HIMSELF (a Lamb) Gen 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
HIMSELF (a LAMB)… IT was a prophecy… shalom
G’day Michelle, thank you for your question. I’m not sure how this is related to the Passover, but the fulfillment of Genesis 22:8 is in Genesis 22:13. It always pays to keep reading 😉
I think it can be read two ways:
G-d will provide Himself AS the lamb (Christians assume this is Jesus)
or
G-d Himself will provide a lamb for Abraham to sacrifice instead of Isaac.
This is why we need Hebrew readers/speakers.
1) Of whom is Isaiah 53:6-7 speaking? Who was brought as a lamb and upon him was laid the iniquity of us all?
2) Yeshua was in his first year of ministry, he was examined for the requisite number of days and found without fault, his death came at the time of the Passover sacrifice, his resurrection was timed for the firstfruit offering. (The Roman Catholic false gospel that pretends his ministry was 3.5 years is unfounded, a topic that could take a full book to explain. He fulfilled the 70 week prophecy of Daniel from his coming of age as a priest at 30 to his ascension.)
3) I find your bewilderment over Ephesians stunning. Don’t you understand allegorical or poetical expressions? Of course it was not a literal burning sweet aroma, similar to Rev 8:3-4 prayers not literally burning up with incense.
I checked the literal translation: And Abraham said, Elohim shall see for himself the flocking (an animal from the flock) for ascent offering my son, and they went two of them together.
Please verify with a Hebrew reader.
G’day Judy, In answer to your question regarding Isaiah 53 please listen to the following program:
https://truth2u.org/2013/08/jono-and-jason-the-servant-in-isaiah.html
The NJPS reads, “God will see to the sheep for His burnt offering, my son.”
yshuas life and deeds were his sacrifice…hence the miracles….Is 1v11 and on…because he honoured YHVH with a true heart as he kept the instructions of torah…
…their silver becomes as dross Isaiah 1v11..so silver and gold IS corruptible.(peter 1v18-19)
HIS body is the temple…remember..a lot of goyim who mis understand the hebrew scriptures become mockers of the truth.
..and in yshuas time it was herods temple..not the temple of YHVH..so the true alter was the mercy seat of the aron ha kodesh…which the chief rabbinite know about and of its whereabouts and discovery in jerusalem.and therefore outside todays city walls!
so every one of us should walk as a living sacrifice to YHVH thru our deeds and action in the faith that was once delivered…dont you think?
Thanks guys – love your teachings:)
Thank you for establishing that “servant” can and does apply to many different entities. Isaiah, Eliakim’s servants, David, Israel, Jacob, etc. Perhaps even the Messiah…
I’m inferring that you are trying to imply that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is then Israel. If “he” is Israel, then who is “we” throughout this passage? Also Israel? that seems odd.
How can “we” (Israel) hide our faces from “him” (Israel)? (Vs 3)
Did YHVH lay the iniquity of Israel on Israel? (vs 6, vs 11) If so, this was a very awkward way to write these two verses. Why not say “I have laid your iniquity upon you”? Why phrase it as him/you if in fact both are you/you? This is repeated in verse 8 – him/my people both mean the same entity? None of this is making sense to me.
Verse 7, mo matter if this is Israel or the Messiah or any other servant, it still doesn’t fit with your presentation about about a lamb not a man. Clearly this analogy is indeed of a human (or the entire nation of Israel, which are still humans, if i stick with your implication that the servant is Israel) in the role of a lamb.
Thank you.
Jono, As for the ‘sweet aroma’ – a soldier falling on a grenade to spare his fellows would certainly be a ‘sweet aroma’ to them as well as their Commander (read God) in the overall sense of the sacrifice! Was not Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac’ a sweet aroma’ to God? Further as is pointed out in Hebrews 11:19 Abraham considered that God was able to raise Isaac from the dead as he figuratively did. Did not Yeshua, as a man, not an avatar or a god fulfill the passover lamb typeology? I don’t think Yeshua was a substitutionary sacrifice as many have it but, a ‘Passover’ / redemptive ‘act’ on Yeshua’s part which was presented to him, Yeshua by his Father, which he, Yeshua willingly submitted to, as Isaac did to his father. Yeshua is recorded as agonizing over his coming death in the garden, but, saying, “Not my will but thy will be done. Trying to be ‘clinical’ here, not dramatic.
Jono, On the Emmaus thing. Peshitta primacy fits the whole picture along with Jonah as the type whereas the other arguments are lacking.
People forget, that the Passover lamb, as well as any lamb sacrificed, had to be without blemish. so the man Jesus or Yeshua is disqualified. He was beaten severely, so very blemished indeed.
Mahalalyah
Mahalalyah, The lamb was also slaughtered, gutted, skinned and then roasted. The ‘type’ the lamb pictured should be obvious. I don’t think Abraham was about to do the same to Isaac.Types do not have to fit the physical reality in this case. As Mikhael points out above and as David’s example in Psalm 51 illustrates, God looks on the ‘heart’ of ones actions. David had a contrite, repentant heart. The things done to Yeshua bodily by the Roman system and his betrayal by a friend into their hands go beyond the type for obvious reasons. The Passover lamb was a type. The death angel saw the ‘blood’ on the lintel and door posts, not the slaughter and the eating. What happened to Yeshua, the man,as Isaiah 53 has it fits the reality of Yeshua’s situation. Christian orthodoxy has paganized and skewed the facts of the crucifixion to a great extent. It is possible to react so strongly against this that one can miss or reject what Isa. 53 is saying. btw I don’t have a ‘position’ to defend and if it appears that I do please point this out.. cheers,and have a meaningful Passover or Lord’s supper – whatever!
Owen. I’ve studied “Typology”. The term is a Christian theological substitute for “Apophenia“. It is entirely subjective and a grasping of straws to substantiate a wanting presupposition while also attempting to malign the Tanakh by reducing it to mere alegory. It carries no weight.
I agree Jono. No matter which way you look at this. The crucifixion of Jesus is not an ordained sacrifice by GOD. Making Jesus a God Man is idolatry. This is not complicated.
I cannot understand why it is so difficult to follow the Torah. The Torah quite clearly tells us how to observe Passover and it spells out why we are keeping the Passover! We are commanded by HaShem not to add to or take away from the Torah; so it would be wise for all people to keep and understand the Passover as HaShem instructed and try not to substitute (or add to) His instructions. Why are HaShem’s commandments and words so meaningless compared to Paul’s or any one else’s?
Amen Lael. This is not complicated.
Lael – Is not referring to YHVH as “the Name” adding or taking away from Torah? Where in Scripture is “HaShem” ever used in place of His Hallowed Name, YHVH? There is power in “the name of” YHVH, but what power is there in simply saying “The Name”?
I hate it when men refer to their wives as “the wife” as it seems so disrespectful, yet you do that to the King and Creator of the universe repeatedly, and solely based on man’s tradition, not on Scripture. If you want to respect him, do it by calling him the name that he revealed, instead of some manmade substitute.
Lael M – To clarify -Annias Bell – I do not understand ‘Jesus’ to be an ‘ordained’ sacrifice and or a ‘God Man’. He was simply a ‘man’ as we are, men/women. The Shema is what i understand ‘God’ to be. No ‘man’ will ever be ‘God’. As David pointed out, God can and does forgive sins apart from ‘animal sacrifice’ Psa. 51:16-17. Jesus was not an animal, just as Isaac was not an animal, we learn from what they did as men, not ‘God/Men’ which they were not. Lael- I do not find it difficult to follow Torah at all. It is my life and how I live. My guiding light is Psalm 119:1- 176. Lael – do you keep the Passover exactly as Torah defines it in detail -Exodus 12:1-51- or do you follow Rabbinic tradition in your observance? I understand that you will not likely be ‘in Egypt’ tonight’ and will not stay indoors overnight. Where does one add to-take away from Torah here? No trying to be ‘picky’ just asking.
Jono – Are you suggesting that Judaism, in seeing Judah/Israel in Isaiah 53 as God’s suffering servant is like people who see Jesus face in a piece of toast. – Apophenia ?
Owen, Isaiah clearly identifies Israel as the servant on numerous occassions. Listen to the following program:
https://truth2u.org/2013/08/jono-and-jason-the-servant-in-isaiah.html
Might want to re-check your verses. In Ex 12:5 it says (and Jason actually had it on the screen) that is to be a MALE. You both remarked how it was to be a female quoting from Lev, need to check Ex 12:5 for the Passover lamb – male.
Linda, a sin sacrifice has to be female if it is a lamb (or a kid). The Passover sacrifice is not a sin sacrifice.
Re:Apophenia= Klaus Conrad was a Nazi! Apophenia = Schyzophrenia? Then would you say the prophets of the bible are schyzophrenic?
Re:Lamb. Nathan the prophet refered “to a lamb as a human” when reffffering to Bathsheba and pointed to king David.. and said… ‘you are that man!
Concerning the Passover sacrifice not being a sin offering: It was an act of belief in YHWH for their deliverance both then and as a foreshadowing of deliverance from sin. None of us, including you, need to be delivered from Egypt today in the physical sense. However, all men are unrighteous before Elohim (Psalm 14) and need to be delivered from the bondage to sin and death that came through Adam. In the most complete sense Messiah Yahushua came to deliver us from sin. Yah will “pass over” all those covered by His atoning blood. Otherwise why still observe, or attempt to remember Passover after that first one in Egypt?
In relation to all the sin offerings being a female from the flock we must first remember what sin is – it is transgression of the Torah. For example, Leviticus 5 and 6 discusses the “guilt offerings” when anyone ‘sinned’ against the matters of YHWH. They were to offer rams – males from the flocks. The ultimate sacrifice for all matters against YHWH was found in Yahushua’s death on the tree. He was cursed for our sake since we are cursed unless born again from above.
I can’t help but think of what Mosheh (Moses) wrote in Deuteronomy 18:15:
“YHWH your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brothers. Listen to Him, according to all you asked of YHWH your Elohim in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my Elohim, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
And YHWH said to me, ‘What they have spoken is true.
I shall raise up for them a Prophet like you out of the midst of their brothers. And I shall put My Words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.”
Yahushua did not come speaking against the Torah of YHWH but against the additions and subtractions to it by the religious leaders.
Silver and gold CAN be corrupted because man will often times mix pure gold or silver with other metals of lesser value thereby cheating people out of their worth. It can also become polluted by natural processes. Hence, the need for ‘refining’ gold or silver at times. Peter wrote what he did because he was referring to the corruption found in the traditions of the fathers – the additions and subtractions to the pure word of Elohim.
As for the blemish-free lamb and your statements that Yahushua was blemished because He was beaten I don’t think you’re understanding the context. A four legged lamb (or any sacrificial animal) was just a picture, or shadow, of the Messiah and the spiritual atonement YHWH would bring.. Therefore, a physically spotless lamb was not a picture of a physically spotless man but of a spiritually blemish-free Messiah. Isaiah’s prophecy that said the Messiah would be bruised, beaten, and crushed for our sins is true. Yahushua Messiah was spotless in that He perfectly obeyed Torah and thus was an acceptable offering before the Father. He was truly unleavened.
Your short video states many heresies against YHWH. I pray that in your earnestness to please Him you’ll turn away from traditions and those things added to/taken from HIS Word and see HIS Son for Who He is – the Lamb of YHWH.
Jadanboo, you twist the Scriptures in the same way Paul did in Romans 3:10 when he left out the opening of Psalm 14, “The fool has said in is heart…” in order to give it a wider application not represented in the text.
Regarding your reference to Deuteronomy 18:15, please listen to the following, https://truth2u.org/2014/02/jono-and-jason-a-prophet-greater-than-moses.html
Judy, you asked, “If “he” is Israel, then who is “we” throughout this passage? Also Israel? that seems odd.” It seems odd because the passage actually begins in Isaiah 52:13. In Isaiah 52:15 it says, “so shall he (the servant, Israel) startle many nations (not Jews, BTW). Kings shall shut their mouths at him because what they had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider.” What follows in 53 is the voice of the “Kings of the nations”.
You have left out Leviticus 16, which is actually where you should be looking………… the aleph tav following the word Elohim in Genesis, indicates bull and strength, you have the bull, the ram, and one of the two goats sacrificed, Barrabas representing the Jewish people proclaiming that “His blood be on our Heads,” is the scapegoat in the wilderness still carrying sin; the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world is not referring to the Passover only, but Atonement. In the Talmund, writings held holy by Jewish people, historically, even the priests in the 40years period after Christs death are recorded as recognizing that there was something drastically wrong as the lot never fell on the sacrificial lamb but only the scapegoat, in short God allowed a period of forty years before destroying the Temple…………as prophesied in Daniel. Also recorded by Jews were the Temple doors, closed by twenty men at night, standing open for 40 years, every morning, over 14000 consecutive days in a row……………recorded in the Talmund as a historical fact. Also if a bruised and broken sacrifice is not acceptable to God then He must surely reject Israel, whom you believe to be the suffering servant in Isaiah 53…………….he was really messy lol. Anyway, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. Shalom
Paul, here’s a article for you… http://jamestabor.com/2013/12/29/the-top-seven-fateful-verses-from-the-new-testament-1-jewish-bloodguilt/
Jono, A ‘rabble’ was ‘roused’ which brought about the crucifixion of Yeshua. The tradition of a prisoner being released at the time of the Festival by the governing Romans resulted in Barrabas release and Yeshua being condemned. Where Paul says “Christ/Messiah is sacrificed for us in 1 Cor.:5:7 which he relates to the Passover lamb which was to be killed on the 14th., he does not abolish the Feast of Passover but emphasizes its’ importance. 1Cor. 5:8 -therefore let us keep the feast ! So Yeshua is not posed as a substitute for the lamb, but, rather a fulfillment of the intensity and meaning of the feast they are (keeping). The blood on the lintel- forehead and the doorposts- two arms in Egypt as is practiced by Judaism with the phylacteries and their placement perfectly combines the physical/spiritual reality of the Festival. It was the firstborn of each household that was spared in Egypt and thus the household just as Abraham’s household and subsequently Israel, his house were and will be spared.
Jono, to focus on specific scriptures by Paul as being anti-semitic as orthodox ‘Christianity’ has done and is ‘blood’ guilty of doing for two millenia takes away from Paul’s agonizing over his people in Romans 10 & 11. It appears to me that you and James Tabor are doing ‘Apophesis’ as well. Is there not a middle point here that does not compromise but conflates the two?
Owen, https://truth2u.org/2013/11/jono-jason-romans-10.html
Lev 16:5…2 male goats…please explain what Lev 16 sacrifices are all about. It seems to point to a once for all Jesus type sacfrice
Ok Jono, the article isn’t really applicable to me, rather for someone who is anti-Semitic……..the author lays blame at the feet of Paul totally out of context, ignoring Romans 11; Ephesians 2 among others. It was God who did “heart surgery” on me giving me a love for the Jewish people, all who know me know this…….in spite of much opposition. However, we seem to have gotten off track, the goat mentioned in Lev 16 vs 21, is a male, just for the record. As a side note, when I speak to a Buddist or Moslem or anyone else………..I do not ridicule their belief with silly humour and snide remarks, both of you seem to have picked up an arrogance about these things. Of course, we know about Xmas, Easter, this is old news not new revelation; but does it help to make fun of the ignorant………..I think not. Concerning the Jewish people, let’s not ride the train of sympathy too far, is not the Tanakh full of judgements concerning His people? Yes! Does that make God anti-Semitic, of course not! One must read what Paul is saying in connection with what was prophesied in the Tanakh…………in context. I think Paul has become a target because it was he who has contributed much to the New Testament, so anyone trying to disprove Yeshua as the Messiah is obviously going to target him, yes?
You mentioned to Linda that a sin sacrifice has to be a male; firstly, Christ had no sin……so let’s put that to bed because we are dealing with two separate issues. He was not making a sin offering for himself, He was making atonement for the sins of Israel, Lev 16, a male goat………..that is the difference.
Jono, regarding Assman’s books, Nehemia Gordon’s comment clarifies the false assumptions by Assman and the common idea, that Christianity is recycled Egyptian paganism, which it is, with the cosmo trinity etc., rather than Egyptian paganism being recycled Christianity, which it appears to be. Are they not one and the same after the early followers of Yeshua and their teaching was corrupted by Gnosticism and the ‘church fathers’? Assman also has the idea that Moses is the foundation of ‘monotheism’ whereas the OT has Abraham as the foundation of monotheism. Am I missing something here?
Jono, Romans 10 — In your understanding , will the ‘Messiah’ be, as you have said, “of the lineage of David”? When Messiah is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, how would you refer to him by name and Title? eg. Jono the Aussie – to keep it a bit lighter in tone here. Further, Yeshua as Yehohvah’s ‘agent of salvation’ according to 2 Cor. 5:18 now all things are of Yehovah, who has reconciled us to Himself (Yehovah) through Yeshua the messiah– continue – 1 Cor. 15:24-28 V-28–Now when all things are made subject to Yeshua then the son ‘himself’ (Yeshua) will also be subject to Yehovah, who put all things under him (Yeshua), that Yehovah may be all in all. Eg .In an emergency- when you call 911 in Canada the operator is the ‘agent’ of the authorities he/she is not ‘the authority’.
Rachel, thank you for your comment, however what we are looking for is a male lamb. not a male kid. But in answer to you question please see the following programs:
https://truth2u.org/achrei-mot-leviticus-161-1830
https://truth2u.org/2011/10/yoel-ben-shlomo-yom-kippur.html
Paul, it is nice that you “love the Jewish people” but I would rather you love the Judaism that makes us Jewish.
In regards to Leviticus 16:21, a goat kid is not a lamb. We are looking for a “lamb that takes away sin”.
Again, a kid is not a lamb.
Owen, we seem to be going round in circles. Yes, the Tanakh says the messiah will be of the lineage of David. Yes, the Tanakh says the messiah will be of the lineage of Solomon. Yes, the Tanakh says the messiah will not be of the lineage of Jeconiah. And Yes, Jesus’ geneology, therefore, disqualifies him from being the messiah.
Jono, it was Christ who changed my heart not Judaism, Judaism could never reach so deep………..don’t get me wrong the law of God is only good, however though it keeps perfect order in a community as we have witnessed throughout history, it cannot deal with the hidden sins of the heart. I could be keeping the Sabbath with hatred, only God would know………..the effectiveness of the law, which is a mirror, cannot change a man’s intent. What you’re saying is that the Messiah (Shiloh), who comes out of Judah in Genesis must be an actual lion? This is not sound reasoning; even though the Lion of Judah was used as a Jewish symbol for many years, and as Jerusalem was the capital of the Kingdom of Judah, in 1950 it was included in the Emblem of Jerusalem, of course the Messiah here could be associated with a lion because of the tribe he is born into………..in the same way Yeshua is represented as the Lamb of Passover delivering us from death, the goat kid making atonement and as the Lion of Judah taking His place in Jerusalem.
Owen mentioned,the curse on Jeconiah. This was fully reversed in Jeremiah 52:31-34, he repented and his lineage restored.
The signet ring restored to his grandson in Haggai 2 vs 23; and proof of his children is found in 1 Chronicles 3vs16-17, Sheatiel, also look for Zerubavel. Jewish sages have known this for ages.
Jono,, Totally apart from Jesus and the NT. My question is- will Messiah be Yehovahs ‘agent’ of salvation as King over Israel, and if so, what would his ‘title’ be ? Will he rule under David or over David. I am assuming the resurrection of David and company here and a salvific act on Yehovahs part, not in the ‘Christian’ sense but in a national sense for the twelve tribes.
“The Torah of Yehovah is perfect converting the soul” – Psalm 19:7
Paul, Jeremiah 52:31-34 does not say the curse was lifted, and Zerubavel never sat on the throne and ruled as king.