365 Messianic Prophecies – Episode #21 – Could Jesus be the servant of Isaiah 53? – Rabbi Michael Skobac
Join us as we continue to investigate the alleged 365 messianic prophesies in the Tanakh that Jesus supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament!
Join us for this year’s Tanakh Tour of Israel!
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Thanks for the analysis guys.
A few questions:
1. Isn’t the mainstream Jewish position that God forbids human for human sacrifice?
2. Doesn’t this text prove that God does accept this form of sacrifice (whether you believe the servant is Israel or Jesus)?
3. If Israel is the servant, does this mean that God has been pleased with the violence done for Jews throughout the centuries? v10: Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease….
4. How does the violence done to Jews around the world result of forgiveness for the rest of Israel….even figuratively?
Verses in Isaiah which suggest that the servant is not Israel…what do you do with these?
-Israel is called blind and imprisoned (42:19)
-the servant will open the eyes of the blind and release prisoners (42:7)
-Israel is called deaf and is rebellious (42:19,20,25)
-the servant has opened ears and isn’t rebellious (50:5)
-Israel walks in darkness and looks for light (59:9)
-the servant brings people from out of the darkness and will be a light (42:7, 49:6)
-Israel is punished for their disobedience (42:24-25)
-the servant is rewarded for his obedience (49:4-6)
-Israel speaks lies (59:3)
-the servant has not spoken deceitfully (53:9)
-Israel has lost its way (59:7-8)
-the servant leads Israel back on track (49:5-6)
-Israel suffers for their own sins (42:25)
-the servant suffers for the sins of others (53:3-9)
-Israel suffers to their own shame (50:1-3)
-the servant suffers and knows he will not be ashamed (50:7)
-Israel is in need of salvation (59)
-the servant will bring salvation. (49:6)
-Israel needs an intercessor (59:16)
-the servant IS an intercessor (53:12)
Your thoughts. Thanks again!
Rabbi Skobac and Jono, thank you so much for the gracious compliments. They mean a great deal, and I appreciate them. Both of you, and I, are interested in the truth — where ever that question may lead us. רב תודות.
Dave, it isn’t the “mainsteam opinion” that human sacrifice is forbidden. It is clearly stated in the Torah time and time again.
Torah forbids vicarious atonement (which is what you are asking in your post — when you suggest that there is a human sacrifice vicariously killed as the servant in Isaiah 53. . . whether that servant is Jesus, Israel (as a nation) or someone else. . . Read Sh’mot / Exodus 32:31-33; Bamidbar / Numbers 35:33; D’varim / Deuteronomy 24:16; Melachim Beit / II Kings 14:6; Yirmiyahu / Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Xian Bible]; Yechezkel / Ezekiel 18:4,20; T’hillim / Psalms 49:7.
Human sacrifices are salso trictly forbidden in Torah (e.g., Vayikra / Leviticus18:21, 24-25; D’varim / Deuteronomy 18:10; Yirmiyahu / Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Yechezkel / Ezekiel 23:37, 39).
So, as you can clearly see that the death of Jesus could never atone for any sin, much less all sins of all people for all time? NOT AT ALL, NEVER! The idea may appeal to Xians, but it is completely un-biblical.
Isaiah 53 does not speak of vicarious atonement and neither does it promote the idea of human sacrifice.
I will address your other questions in the next post, but want to point out that Isaiah was a prophet to the northern Kingdom of Israel. The term “Israel” is used to speak of that northern Kingdom as well as Jacob (who G-d renamed “Israel”) and also the children of Israel (Jacob) — aka the Jews. One has to be careful when reading the word “Israel” in the T’nach to determine whom is being addressed. Is it Jacob (Israel)? Is it the northern Kingdom of Israel (destroyed 700 years before the southern Kingdom of Judah)? Or is it the people of Israel who still lives today?
Dave, I responded to your first two questions in my previous post. Let’s start tackling the rest.
3. If Israel is the servant, does this mean that G-d has been pleased with the violence done for Jews throughout the centuries? v10: Yet it pleased the L-RD to crush him by disease….
Verse 10 says “G-d desired to oppress him and He afflicted him. If his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days, and G-d’s purpose would succeed in his hand.” It doesn’t say G-d is pleased with the violence done to the servant. Before I address whether it fits the Jews note that verse 10 does NOT fit Jesus.
Jesus did not acknowledge guilt. Christians say he was “without sin.” Some Christian translations say this line speaks of the “guilt sacrifice” — but that was a very specific sacrifice for minor sins (mostly related to being ritually impure when entering the Temple). It makes no sense in line 10.
Jesus did not see “offspring.” He did not have children — and the word in line 10 (zera) refers ONLY to physical descendants of the parent. It simply doesn’t fit Jesus.
This line also says that the servant, having admitted guilt, will live a very long physical life. Jesus died in his 30s. Again, it simply does not fit Jesus.
So does it fit Israel (the Jews)?
Line 10 is saying that G-d oppressed and afflicted the servant (just as a parent punishes a child), hoping that the servant would acknowledge the wrongdoings he has done (just like a child who breaks the rules). Once the child admits guilt and the punishment is over the parent is happy because the child has “learned his lesson.” This is exactly what Isaiah is stating of G-d and the servant. Once the servant admits guilt the servant will see offspring and live a long life.
Bottom line on verse 10 is that G-d exiled and oppressed the Jewish people, in order to inspire us to return to Torah observance. If the Jews would only “acknowledge guilt,” they would see their “offspring and live long days.” This will happen in the Messianic era when all Jews will return to Torah observance. Again, it did not happen during the time of Jesus (the opposite occured).
This is taking some time. I may wind up with many posts on this page! Well, Jono did call me the “Comments Queen”!
You also mentioned that it pleased G-d to crush the servant by disease. I assume you are referring to 53:4 (and not 10). Line 4 says “Indeed, he bore our illnesses and carried our pains – but we regarded him as diseased, stricken by G-d and afflicted.”
These are the nations speaking (not G-d). The Jews were regarded as sub-human (consider not only the Nazis, but the modern Arab nations accuse Jews of drinking the blood of children and have caricatures dehumanizing Jews.
The servant is not stricken by G-d and afflicted (as you wrote) — rather it is the nations who THOUGHT that the servant was stricken by G-d and afflicted!
As Rabbi Skobac mentioned, chapters were an invention of monks in the 16th century. Isaiah 53 really begins with the the last few lines of chapter 52 which shows clearly that the nations are speaking in the beginning of Isaiah 53. Here are the pertinent passages:
Isaiah 52:13 Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty.
14 Just as multitudes were astonished over you (saying) “His appearance is too marred to be a man’s, and his visage to be human”,
15 so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths (in amazement) for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.
So it is the NATIONS exclaiming about the servant. . .
I’ve already addressed your 4th question, but I will touch on it again here. You asked;
4. How does the violence done to Jews around the world result of forgiveness for the rest of Israel….even figuratively? –
I’ve already discussed the fact that vicarious atonement (which is what you are asking) is forbidden in the Torah. Ergo, violence done to one does not magically “fix” another person. Each one of us “dies for our own sins.” The Christian idea of one’s sins being forgiven through the suffering of another person goes against the basic biblical teaching that each individual has to atone for his own sins by repenting.
Sh’mot / Exodus 32:32-33, Moses asks G-d to let him atone for the sins of the Jews and G-d replies “God replied to Moses, ‘I will blot out from My book those who have sinned against Me.” Moses cannot atone for the sins of the people — they must atone for their own sins.
D’varim / Deut. 24:16 “Fathers shall not die [through the testimony] of their sons, and sons shall not die [through the testimony] of their fathers, since [in any case] every man shall die for his sins.”
Yechezkel / Ezekiel 18:1-4. “. . . the soul that sins, it shall die.”
So what is the violence done to Jews around the world “about”? Well, Isaiah 52:13-15 which I just quoted in my last post begins to explain it — G-d exiled the Jews because, after the return from Babylonian Exile, the nation as a whole did not return to Torah observance. Moses actually spoke about this exile in D’varim / Deuteronomy 4:27 “G-d will then scatter you among the nations, and only a small number will remain among the nations to which G-d will lead you.”
Line 3 of Isaiah 53 explains about the violence done to Jews around the world. “He was despised and rejected of men, a man of pains and accustomed to sickness. As one from whom we would hide our faces, he was despised, and we had no regard for him.”
This verse describes the servant as despised and rejected. This has been a historical theme for the Jewish people, as a long list of oppressors have treated the Jews as sub-human (Crusades, Pogroms, Inquisitions, the Holocaust and today the Arab nations dehumanize the Jews.).
G-d created man with free will, Dave. G-d exiled the Jews both as a punishment and to teach us the “hard way” what we did not learn without the bitterness. Just as a parent offers a child incentives and punishment, so too does G-d with man. BUT, the nations, using their free will, went far beyond what they should have done in mistreating the Jewish people.
Now ask yourself, how did the violence supposedly done to Jesus atone for the sins of the world? If it had there would be world peace and we would truly ben in the messianic age. Instead, after Jesus supposed death the Jews were exiled, the Temple and Jerusalem destroyed — the exact opposite of what will happen when the messiah actually comes.
Dave, I am happy to take each and every one of your verses in Isaiah where you ask don’t these verses “suggest that the servant is not Israel…what do you do with these?” — although I do feel I’ve taken up far too much space on this page already addressing your points. . .
But it is the “wrong” question. You should be asking don’t the verses in Isaiah 53 suggest that the servant is not Jesus — he did not live a long physical life (53:10), he did not see his children from his sperm (53:10), he was not despised and rejected (as Isaiah 53:3 states that the servant will be despised and rejected — see Matthew 4:25), Mark 3:7-9, Luke 2:52 and Luke 4:14-15) for examples. .
Some missionaries will claim that Jesus was despised after he was turned over to Pilate. Not true. Read Luke 23:27 — a multitude bemoaned what was happening to Jesus — this is despised? And how was he isolated? He was crucified on a public hill with others — and many people all around! How does the Christian bible describe Jesus? He was loved by all (Luke 2:40,47,52) he was a popular preacher (Mark 3:7-9) he was “praised by all” (Luke 4:14-15). . . Some may have deserted him after he was condemned but nowhere does the Christian bible say that suddenly all the Jews who had loved him suddenly despised him.
Jesus was not a man of pains and accustomed to sickness (53:3) and Jesus bore no ones illness (53:4). When wasJesus a leper? The term in line 53:4 is נגוע / “nagua” which means stricken with leprosy (a long, painful and debilitating disease). This NEVER happened to Jesus. He was not accustomed to illness like leprosy (or any other for that matter).
As a youth Luke tells us “And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and in physical growth [helikia, cf. Luke 12:25, 19:3], and in favor with God and men” (Luke 2:52). He wasn’t sickly. Jesus is never described as being accustomed to sickness, or being a “man of pains” (which means more than a few hours on a cross). Isaiah 53:3 is speaking of someone who suffers from a LONG and debilitating type of illness — not someone who got beaten up. Someone who suffered for a short time before dying would not be described as a ‘man of pains’. Even if the death was a very painful one, we would only say that he died a painful death, and not call him a man of pains.
I could go on — but do the homework for yourself. It is clear that the “suffering servant” could not be Jesus. Could it refer to someone other than the Jews? Possibly — it may refer to the Jews and an individual (Targum Yonathan relates some of Isaiah 53 to the Jews and some to moshiach ben Yosef — not “the” messiah BTW). Allegorically it has been applied to Moses, to King David and others. Going back 2000 years ago where church father Origen, in 248 CE, speaks of Jews telling him the servant was Israel and not the messiah.
I feel that I am monopolizing this comments page — and I will address the first of your verses in Isaiah which you suggest show that the servant is not Israel — although “so what”? Whether or not you disprove to yourself that the servant cannot be Israel (and you are wrong!) — it is clear that the servant cannot be Jesus with far more supporting proof. But let’s take your first example:
-Israel is called blind and imprisoned (42:19)
-the servant will open the eyes of the blind and release prisoners (42:7)
Here is a link to a translation of chapter 42 for those who want to read it for themselves. http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15973/jewish/Chapter-42.htm#showrashi=true
Since chapters are a Christian invention from the 16th century let’s go back to 41 to understand, in context, what is happening in chapter 42. We are told clearly that Israel is the servant:
Isaiah 41:8 “But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me,”
So Israel is the servant, per Isaiah.
G-d goes on to say in Isaiah 41:9 “”You are My servant”; I chose you and I did not despise you.”
That goes back to an earlier point of yours — it is NOT G-d who despises the Jews. It is the nations. . .
G-d goes on to say that the nations will eventually be confounded an astonished when they realize that G-d did not desert His servant, the Jews (this theme is repeated in those last lines of Isaiah 52 and the first of Isaiah 53 where the nations speak and are astonished). G-d says “Behold all those incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; those who quarreled with you shall be as nought and be lost.” (Isaiah 41:11).
Now on to 42.
42:6 has G-d saying to the Jews “I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people’s covenant, for a light to nations.”
G-d is speaking of the eternal covenant he made with the Jews.
Now on to line 42:7 which you state means “the servant will open the eyes of the blind and release prisoners” — this is speaking of the Jews in the messianic era, a time when Christians and others will realize that they have been blind to the real G-d and worshiping the false god of Jesus. This is more obvious in the very next line which says:
“I am the L-rd, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.” His name is not “Jesus” and He does not share His glory to another (Jesus) or His praises to those who worship graven images (pictures, crosses, crucifixes, etc. of Jesus). . .
Line 16 speaks yet again of the blind “And I will lead the blind on a road they did not know; in paths they did not know I will lead them;” G-d will lead Christians away from idolatry. Line 17 makes this clearer “They shall turn back greatly ashamed, those who trust in the graven image, who say to the molten idols, “You are our gods.” Those who have worshiped the graven image of Jesus will turn away from their false religion.
Line 19 (which you referenced) does state that the servant of G-d is blind. Ask yourself again, Dave, IF the servant is Jesus — is he blind? Line 19 says “Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the L-rd.” Was Jesus blind and deaf to the message of G-d — or do you think Jesus IS G-d (in which case how can G-d be blind and deaf?). Again, it simply does not FIT Jesus.
But it does fit many of the Jews, unfortunately, even today. The Torah consistently speaks of a righteous remnant who remain faithful to G-d (of the Jews). Re-read my quote from D’varim / Deuteronomy 4 where G-d speaks of the Jews being few in number. Most Jews are NOT observant, even today. Many are secular. Many are not as observant as they should be. Many are blind to the mitzvot — and some even became Christians or “Jews for Jesus.” They are blind to our contract with G-d. This is why the messiah has not yet come — and this is why we were exiled in the first place 2000 years ago (we were fighting amongst ourselves).
The Artscroll Stone Edition footnote says (regarding Isaiah 42:18-20) “Those who were formrelly blind and deaf to G-d’s will will repent and become His servants. . . who is blinder than G-d’s servants and messengers (Ibn Ezra and Radak).”
The prophet Isaiah wrote four “Servant Songs” in which he describes the climactic period of world history when the Messiah will arrive and the world turns to Jews as the “nation of priests.” Those who are blind will return to observance.
Again, I’m not saying that Isaiah 53 cannot be about others, or include others than Israel — it is certainly speaking of the messianic age which isn’t here yet — but Isaiah himself clearly identifies Israel again and again as G-d’s servant.
Isaiah 41 8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, “You are My servant”; I chose you and I did not despise you.
and
Isaiah 44 1. And now, hearken, Jacob (Jacob’s name was changed to Israel) My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
and
Isaiah 44:21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you,you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.
and
Isaiah 45 4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.
and
Isaiah 49 3. And He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.”
and
Isaiah 49:7 This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: “Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”
and from Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 30:10 ” ‘So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,’ declares HaShem .
Also see Isaiah 42:19-20; 43:10 to see that Israel is the servant, nowhere is this term used for the messiah. Jeremiah 30:10 also names Israel as the servant and Jeremiah 30:17 says that the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by G-d, just like in Isaiah 53:4. Also see Jeremiah 46:27-28 and Psalm 136:22.
Jono — sorry for so monopolizing the comments to date!
Thanks for the many replies Sophiee! Wow, its going to take me some time to read through all of these responses. Let me first address your assertion that human sacrifice is forbidden.
One of modern Judaism’s arguments against Yeshua offering himself for man’s sin is the belief that one person cannot pay for the sin of another. This is called “vicarious atonement”. The word vicarious means, “acting, or done, on behalf of someone else or in his place”. This argument ignores the fact that this is exactly what animal sacrifices were. God accepted the life-blood of the innocent animal on behalf of the guilty person. I refer again to Leviticus 17:11.
Many rabbis also argue that since God did not accept Moses’ offer to take Israel’s punishment for them as recorded in Exodus 32:30-33, this proves that God does not accept a man’s sacrifice on another’s behalf. All this particular scene really proves is that God would not accept Moses’ sacrifice on behalf of others. There could be a number of reasons why God would not accept Moses’ offer other than the assumption that man-for-man could not be done. It could be that Moses himself was not without spot and sin-free as all acceptable sacrifices had to be. Nor was Moses’ one life, as good as it was, worth the lives of an entire nation. What the rabbis seem to overlook is the fact that even Moses believed it was possible a man could offer himself on behalf of others or he would not have made the proposition! Where do you suppose he got the idea?
It can’t be avoided that in Isaiah 53 someone is dying for the sins of someone else. Again, here is some of the highlights
But he was wounded for **our** transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the ***Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all***.
For he was cut-off from the land of the living; ***for the transgressions of my people*** he was stricken.
When You make his soul an ***offering for sin***,
For he shall ***bear their iniquities***.
And he ***bore the sin of many***, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53
The other texts you mentioned are referring to an entirely different concept. Ezekiel 18 is not about the inability for someone to die for someone else. It is about the fact that men will not be judged for the sins of their fathers. Thats it!
Thats all I have time for, for now. Be back later! Shalom!
Dave, you are reading a mistranslation. The proper Hebrew reads like this: …”he was wounded ***from (ie, because of) *** our transgressions, he was bruised *** from (ie, because of)*** our iniquities. Similar with “bearing” the sins of many essentially means “suffering from” the sins of many, like the Jewish people have suffered from the persecution (which are sins) of the many nations they lived amongst, not least od which were those who fervently believed in JC.
Hi Sophee,
I am impressed with the above replies, brilliant!
your Email.id would help me a lot, if i have any questions.
MY ID: zerabavel@gmail.com.
Thank you and great work helping others understanding the word.
yosef- The translation difference is not significant imho. Whether you say “for” or “from” in this context it means the same thing…”because” of. Even in your message you has “because of” in parenthesis. This is exactly what the word “for” means in english.
I realize your position and you believe the servant to be Israel. However there is a problem with your logic imho. I actually agree that gentiles (especially christians/muslims) have caused much suffering to the Jewish people over the years. I don’t believe this was “God’s will” for His people but was because of the evil choices of gentiles. Yet, if I follow your logic, it actually WAS God’s will for His people.
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and ***Yehovah hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all***…
10 Yet it ***pleased*** Yehovah to crush him by disease…
So right here. Yehovah says that He made it happen and that He was pleased to do so!!! Is it your opinion that Yehovah orchestrated the Shoah? Even worse did events like to Shoah “please” God? That is what we are forced into believing if we follow Tovia’s arguments to their full conclusion.
Sophiee-
You said: “G-d created man with free will, Dave. G-d exiled the Jews both as a punishment and to teach us the “hard way” what we did not learn without the bitterness. Just as a parent offers a child incentives and punishment, so too does G-d with man. BUT, the nations, using their free will, went far beyond what they should have done in mistreating the Jewish people.”
You have really studied Tovia Singer’s arguments well. Here is one of his quotes:
“’I am very angry with the nations…’ why? ‘…because they’re at ease. And I was wroth a little but they helped to do harm.’ They did far more than Israel ever deserved.”
It is impossible for you and Tovia to be right about this. You can’t say on the one hand, “the gentiles went to far” and on the other hand “God was pleased with it”. It doesn’t add up or make sense in the slightest. Notice that Yehovah says that He “made to light on him” (Israel in your view) the sins of the gentiles. He also says that He was “pleased” TO DO IT!!!
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and Yehovah ****hath made to light on him**** the iniquity of us all…
10 Yet it ***pleased*** Yehovah to crush him by disease…
I’m still waiting to hear how gentiles killing and torturing Jews results in the sins of the gentiles being forgiven. No matter how you want to slice it, Isaiah clearly says that by the wounds of “the servant” the “Gentiles” are healed.
Yehovah has laid on him (Israel) the iniquity of us all (the gentiles)
This means that the text is saying that the suffering of Israel produces healing or salvation for the Gentiles:
And with his stripes we were healed v5
How does violence produce healing???
Dave, you really need to read all of those posts I wrote in direct response to your FIRST post. In yuor second post you continue to insist that vicarious atonement is part of Judaism (you state this was the purpose of animal sacrifices) — when I’ve already shown that vicarious atonement is FORBIDDEN in the Torah. “Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16, II Kings 14:6).
NO ONE can die for your sins. The animals sacrificed did not die for the sins of their owners, either. Qorban (translated as sacrifices) meant drawing near to G-d — most had to do with thanking G-d and not for atoning anything. Blood is not needed for the forgiveness of sin (the Christian bible completely reversed the Torah), and the more serious transgressions had no blood sacrifices at all — one had to repent, turn to G-d, do acts of charity, etc.
I would also appreciate it if you would stop saying things like “modern Judaism’s arguments” and “most rabbis” — because you are inferring that modern Judaism has “changed” things and that is patently false. Observant Jews follow Torah — today as we did 2000 years ago and as we did 3500 years ago. So if you can change your tone I would greatly appreciate it.
No, vicarious atonement is NOT part of Judaism — modern, Rabbinic, ancient, Torah — JUDAISM.
“But everyone will die for his own sin; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:30).
That throws out the idea of “vicarious atonement” and it is only one of many such quotes in the bible.
From my first post regarding the falsity of “vicarious atonement.” Torah forbids vicarious atonement (which is what you are asking in your post — when you suggest that there is a human sacrifice vicariously killed as the servant in Isaiah 53. . . whether that servant is Jesus, Israel (as a nation) or someone else. . . Read Sh’mot / Exodus 32:31-33; Bamidbar / Numbers 35:33; D’varim / Deuteronomy 24:16; Melachim Beit / II Kings 14:6; Yirmiyahu / Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Xian Bible]; Yechezkel / Ezekiel 18:4,20; T’hillim / Psalms 49:7.
When Torah speaks of bringing atonement (grain, money, burnt offerings, blood offerings. . .) none of these atonements “save an eternal soul.” They are actions that (along with repentence, prayer and turning to G-d) act to forgive an instance of transgression — or to atone for specific things, up to and including our lives (nefesh = life force), but not our immortal souls.
Isaiah 53:3 in Christian translations could lead someone to believe that it speaks of vicarious atonement because most versions translate it as “he was wounded FOR our transgressions.” This is a mistranslation which gives that very erroneous conclusion. The proper translation is “he was wounded BECAUSE OF our transgressions.” Becuase of what we did, the servant was wounded (not “for” us).
Dave, I spent a great deal of time writing all of my responses to you. Since you are a Christian I don’t expect you to agree with me — but please show me the respect to read them before you respond. Your latest post insisting on vicarious atonement shows clearly that you didn’t even read my FIRST post to you.
Rabbi Michael Skobac has written a wonderful article on the topic of vicarious atonement — a cornerstone of Christianity but completely foreign and forbidden by the Torah. http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/scriptural-studies/leviticus-1711/
One of Dave’s biggest stumbling blocks is the badly mistranslation translation he is using. It is misleading him to see “Jesus” and “vicarious atonement” where it does not exist. Take just one of his quotes (which he used to support vicarious atonement) “When You make his soul an ***offering for sin***”
The word “sin” does not appear in Isaiah 53:10.
At all.
Non-existant.
The word “soul” also does not mean “immortal soul.” The word used here is nefesh — and that translates to our life-force. The blood coursing through your veins which keeps you alive. It has nothing to do with the immortal soul.
what about the idea that Isaiah 53:10 is speaking of an offering?
That isn’t in the text either.
The entire translation given (KJV?) is wrong.
A more correct translation is “their souls needed only to acknowledge their guilt”
The mistranslation of “offering” comes from the KJV and others mistranslating the word אָשָׁם asham as “offering.” אָשָׁם asham can be translated as guilt (as in someone being guilty) but it also refers to a very specific type of sacrifice discussed in Leviticus (Vayikra) chapter 5. This is translated by Christians as the “transgression” or “guilt” sacrifice.
But in Isaiah 53:10 it can only mean someone who is guilty and not the “guilt” sacrifice.
Why?
Because the אָשָׁם asham sacrifice was only for a few very specific things — none of which apply in Isaiah 53:10.
The אָשָׁם asham was for three different types of very specific violations, all discussed in Vayikra / Leviticus chapter 5:
1. unintentionally taking and using something from the holy Temple. The person must return the items, add 1/5th in restitution and bring an asham;
2. asham taluy is for when you aren’t sure if you sinned or not, so just to be sure you bring an asham taluy. If later you discover that you did commit a cheit (accidental sin) you bring a chatat (sin offer);
3. asham g’zelot if you lied under oath defrauding someone of his things or money. In this case again you have to return the stolen things and add 1/5th to it as well as bring the asham g’zelot.
None of those “fit” Isaiah 53:10.
This type of sacrifice could only be brought by the person who was guilty of one of those 3 specific types of sins.
This type of sacrifice could only be brought in the form of a FEMALE goat or sheep.
This type of sacrifice had to be brought in the Temple.
This type of sacrifice had to be without physical blemish (Jesus was supposedly beaten and bloody).
So the word could be translated as a certain type of sacrifice but given the sentence structure the Xian translation is in error.
The words in question are part of Isaiah 53:10 and the transliteration is im tasim asham nafsho.
Isaiah is saying “if (im) set or put (tasim) guilt or ransom (asham) soul (nafsho) and goes on to say he will have children and a long life (remember the “im” IF he does these things).
Tasim means set and asham means guilt or to ransom. Tasim can either be third person singular feminine future or second person singular masculine future.
Tasim is neither reflexive nor third person masculine singular.
Ergo there is no way one can properly translate this verse as it appears in most Xian translations. It has to do with admitting one’s sins (atoning).
Lastly, Dave, and again I apologize for the number of my posts and their length — but it is the only way to answer the mistakes — sacrifices were not “magic.”
Sacrifices were not vicarious atonement.
This whole fixation on blood, blood, blood by missionaries is not supported by the Jewish bible. The missionaries take the statement that blood can atone for SOME sins and somehow morph it into “you need blood for sins to be forgiven.” This is akin to eating a slice of pizza because you are hungry and then insisting that the only type of food that exists in the world is pizza. How crazy is that?
I won’t take as long with the other “supporting” quotes given — but I will give a more correct translation for each one.
DAVE “But he was wounded for **our** transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the ***Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all***.”
Those are mistranslations of Isaiah 53:5-6. It doesn’t say “he was wounded FOR our sins” but rather “He was wounded as a result of our transgressions.” The gentiles are speaking of how the servant was wounded as a result of their behavior.
This is true for “he was bruised for our iniquities.” Nope. “(the servant was) crushed as a result of our iniquities.” The servant was crushed because of the sins of the gentiles — what they did (not “for”).
“by his stripes we are healed.” Nope. “through THEIR (plural, not singular) wounds we would be healed.” This is not vicarious atonement — according to the Judaica Press notes: “we were healed – lit. it was healed for us. The punishment that should have befallen us was healed; i.e. it was averted by Israel’s sufferings. Alternatively, any calamity that befell the gentiles did not last, but was healed, while the Jews remained with those afflictions. -[Redak].” All of the nations deserved the harsh punishment meted out to the Jewish people for millenia; but, the Jews bore the brunt of the suffering.
Line 53:6 does not say (as Dave wrote) “*Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all***.Instead it says G-d “accepted their prayers for the iniquity of all of us (gentile nations who have sinned).” See 53:12 where this sentiment is repeated “even when suffering the sins of the many they were praying for those wicked ones.”
DAVE: “For he was cut-off from the land of the living; ***for the transgressions of my people*** he was stricken”
This is a mistranslation of Isaiah 53:8. As with the earlier verses the text does not say “FOR” the transgressions, but as before it is “because of my people’s sin they were afflicted.” Because of the sins of the gentiles they (PLURAL) were afflicted. The phrase, “land of the living” (Eretz HaChaim) refers specifically to the Land of Israel. Thus this verse, “He was removed from the land of the living,” does not mean that the servant was killed, but rather was exiled from the Land of Israel. Jews were exiled from Israel about 100 years after Jesus’ supposed death.
When You make his soul an ***offering for sin***, — I addressed this earlier. The word “sin” does not appear at all, and it is not about an offering (sacrifice). Rather this says IF the servant admits guilt (then he will have a long life and have children, none of which applies to Jesus.)
DAVE: For he shall ***bear their iniquities***.
Mistranslation of Isaiah 53:11. It does not say the servant will bear anyone’s iniquities. A better translation is “He would see the purpose and be satisfied with his soul’s distress. With his knowledge My servant will cause the masses to be righteous; and he will bear their sins.” One more time: vicarious atonement is NOT biblical — it goes against the basic biblical teaching that each individual has to atone for his own sins by repenting. (Exodus 32:32-33, Deut. 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4)
DAVE: And he ***bore the sin of many***, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53
This is Isaiah 53:12 — and indeed the Jews have born the sins of many — as the gentile nations have admitted earlier in Isaiah 53. They mistreated the Jews and heaped their sins upon us. . . but even as they did so Jews continued to intercede with G-d and pray for the gentile nations. “he bore the sin of the many, and prayed for the wicked.” Jews always pray for the gentiles. As the prophet Jeremiah said “וְדִרְשׁ֞וּ אֶת־שְׁל֣וֹם הָעִ֗יר אֲשֶׁ֨ר הִגְלֵ֤יתִי אֶתְכֶם֙ שָׁ֔מָּה וְהִתְפַּֽלְל֥וּ בַֽעֲדָ֖הּ אֶל־יְיָ֑ כִּ֣י בִשְׁלוֹמָ֔הּ יִֽהְיֶ֥ה לָכֶ֖ם שָׁלֽוֹם “Work for the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray to G-d for it, because your own well-being is dependent on its well-being” (Yirm’yahu / Jeremiah 29:7).
I sinderely hope Dave will take the trouble to read Rabbi Skobac’s article. Vicarious atonement is NOT biblical. No one can die for your sins. Sacrifices were never “magic” and are not mandatory (Daniel did not have a Temple in which to bring a sacrifice yet he was righteous). Indeed when we cannot bring sacrifices we are forbidden from doing so — they must be done in the right place in the right manner — which is why Jesus’ murder by Romans could never be considered a sacrifice. (Not to mention that human sacrifice is forbidden time and time again).
Sacrifices were not “magic” — which is the message given by saying people are unsure if their sins are forgiven without a temple for sacrifices. It also ignores the fact that most sins were NEVER atoned for with sacrifices in the first place! Missionaries seem think there was some “magic” in blood sacrifices and this is not supported by the Jewish bible. Indeed sacrifices were not so much for G-d as they were a gift from G-d.
The Rambam (Maimonides) explained this when he told us that G-d doesn’t need sacrifices.
Man does.
In other words, the Jews were used to bringing sacrifices and this is why G-d permitted them. Qorban gave man a way to feel closer to G-d by giving Him something of value (be it money, flour, an animal, etc.).
In pagan religions the gods were bloodthirsty and needed blood to be satisfied. In Judaism G-d permitted man to bring sacrifices because man needed them — He needs nothing.
Sophiee – I, for one, am thankful for all of your posts. Your thorough and respectful responses are of immense benefit.
A very good show, as always.
I think it’s interesting that many people throughout history have tried to claim the role of Messiah for themself. Did they not know that the Messiah must die? Did they all just have death wishes? Obviously not. It was not understood, as R’ Skobac pointed out, that the Messiah would die to atone for the sins of the world.
Jim
Sophiee,
Forgive me if I don’t respond to all of your posts promptly. Each time you respond you end up writing a new thesis so cut me a little slack why don’t ya? You also have wrongly assumed I am a Christian. I assure you I am not, neither am I a Messianic Jew. I’m just a dude. Let me formally address the verses you keep using to denounce vicarious atonement.
16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut 24: 16
5And it came to pass, as soon as the kingdom was established in his hand, that he slew his servants who had slain the king his father; 6but the children of the murderers he put not to death; according to that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, as the LORD commanded saying: ‘The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.’ 2 Kings 14:5-6
So what do these text actually say? It is so clear that even a five year old could understand. A man can’t be held responsible for what another man does. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with vicarious atonement at all. This was clearly to prevent people from killing innocent people because of the sins of their fathers. That’s it. The same goes for Exodus 32:31-33; Numbers 35:33; Deuteronomy 24:16; Jeremiah 31:29 Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 49:7. These are all talking about the same concept. Israelites were not to punish people for the sins of others. This is a no brainer really. Don’t kill someone for something someone else did….check.
You said “NO ONE can die for your sins. The animals sacrificed did not die for the sins of their owners, either. Qorban (translated as sacrifices) meant drawing near to G-d — most had to do with thanking G-d and not for atoning anything. Blood is not needed for the forgiveness of sin (the Christian bible completely reversed the Torah), and the more serious transgressions had no blood sacrifices at all — one had to repent, turn to G-d, do acts of charity,”
I am well aware that blood was not required for every sacrifice. I am actually very versed in Tovia’s arguments that you are regurgitating. You are still dismissing the obvious fact that each animal was a vicarious sacrifice which was used to cover the sins of the offender. Do you really want to argue this?
You said: “I would also appreciate it if you would stop saying things like “modern Judaism’s arguments” and “most rabbis” — because you are inferring that modern Judaism has “changed” things and that is patently false. Observant Jews follow Torah — today as we did 2000 years ago and as we did 3500 years ago. So if you can change your tone I would greatly appreciate it.”
You have no idea the way Jews were keeping Torah 2000 years ago. Much less 3500 years ago!! Please save me the lecture. It would also cut down on your post lengths! A win win.
“he was wounded FOR our transgressions.” This is a mistranslation which gives that very erroneous conclusion. The proper translation is “he was wounded BECAUSE OF our transgressions.” Becuase of what we did, the servant was wounded (not “for” us).”
As I stated earlier…the word “for” means because. So there is nothing wrong with the translation. So let me get this straight.
Isreal was wounded because of the sins of the gentiles. This premise complete avoids the theme of Isaiah. Isaiah lists NUMEROUS reasons for why Israel was to be persecuted.
The chastisement for the “gentiles” peace was upon Israel?
And by Israel’s wounds, the “gentiles” are healed???
Why do the Gentiles get healed after torturing and persecuting Jews????
Why was Yehovah “pleased” with the way the Gentiles tortured Israel??
Please explain.
You said: “I sinderely hope Dave will take the trouble to read Rabbi Skobac’s article. Vicarious atonement is NOT biblical. No one can die for your sins. Sacrifices were never “magic” and are not mandatory (Daniel did not have a Temple in which to bring a sacrifice yet he was righteous). Indeed when we cannot bring sacrifices we are forbidden from doing so — they must be done in the right place in the right manner — which is why Jesus’ murder by Romans could never be considered a sacrifice”
Animal sacrifices are very necessary when there is a Temple standing. They will soon be necessary again when the messiah comes to rebuild it. Listen, I realize that the true purpose to every sacrifice was repentance but you seem to be dismissive of very specific commands that Yehovah gave which were meant to “cover” sins when done with the right heart. Animal sacrifices were very important and will be again soon. Nobody ever said they were “magic”. Nor are you “forbidden” from offering them now. Many Jews forget that there were many lay alters where people offered animal sacrifices besides the Temple.
“I have heard it said, “God is not the author of human sacrifice”. At face value, this statement sounds profound enough to be the final word on the matter. But let us consider the fact that God is the author of love. With this in mind, consider Yeshua’s irrefutable words.
“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.” John 15:13
Throughout history, courageous, love-driven men and women have willingly given up their lives and died for the sake of others. These individuals are honored by society for their self-less sacrifices. These sacrifices are nothing less than “human sacrifices”. This is what Yeshua did in giving himself on the cross, and his act was as honorable as they come in the eye’s of heaven. From God’s point of view, the only acceptable human sacrifice an individual may offer is himself on behalf of others.”
http://judaismvschristianity.com/burnt_offerings.htm
“In other words, the Jews were used to bringing sacrifices and this is why G-d permitted them. Qorban gave man a way to feel closer to G-d by giving Him something of value (be it money, flour, an animal, etc.).
In pagan religions the gods were bloodthirsty and needed blood to be satisfied. In Judaism G-d permitted man to bring sacrifices because man needed them — He needs nothing.”
God doesn’t **need** us to do anything. You are making a straw man argument. Its not about what God needs, but what God REQUIRES. He very clearly commanded animal sacrifices. He even said that the blood of the sacrifices would “cover/atone” for the sin of the transgressor. It wasn’t something that God merely “permitted”. He commanded it and instructed it down to the very last detail. He even let us know over and over again that it was about making atonement/covering for our sins. Sounds like you need to re-read Leviticus.
Its also not a thing of the past either. Ezekiel tells us that when the messiah comes and rebuilds the Temple, we will be offering animal sacrifices again!
“Then it shall be the Prince’s part (royalty!) to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel, he shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make ***atonement*** for the house of Israel.” Ezekiel 45:17.
Dave seems to be arguing that the Jewish Bible doesn’t teach anything new, nothing different than pagan beliefs. Sophiee seems to be arguing that the Jewish Bible belongs to the Jews and therefore it is Jewish understanding that is correct. Watching this debate from the sidelines I can say Sophiee’s arguments are more compelling and in context. Dave’s arguments are circular, repetitious, out of context, uses mistranslations all which are viewed through the lens of Jesus. Dave may not be a Christian but until he said so I also thought that he was Christian. Anyway, at this point the debate does not seem to be going anywhere albeit a good contrast has been provided. Thanks to Dave and Sophiee for the contrast.
You said- “This is Isaiah 53:12 — and indeed the Jews have born the sins of many — as the gentile nations have admitted earlier in Isaiah 53. They mistreated the Jews and heaped their sins upon us. . . but even as they did so Jews continued to intercede with G-d and pray for the gentile nations. “he bore the sin of the many, and prayed for the wicked.” Jews always pray for the gentiles. As the prophet Jeremiah said “וְדִרְשׁ֞וּ אֶת־שְׁל֣וֹם הָעִ֗יר אֲשֶׁ֨ר הִגְלֵ֤יתִי אֶתְכֶם֙ שָׁ֔מָּה וְהִתְפַּֽלְל֥וּ בַֽעֲדָ֖הּ אֶל־יְיָ֑ כִּ֣י בִשְׁלוֹמָ֔הּ יִֽהְיֶ֥ה לָכֶ֖ם שָׁלֽוֹם “Work for the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray to G-d for it, because your own well-being is dependent on its well-being” (Yirm’yahu / Jeremiah 29:7).”
NOT BUYING IT. Lets be honest for a second, Israel has not typically been a huge fan of the Gentile nations around them. I don’t blame them either. But don’t expect me to believe that Israel was this innocent “lamb” who kept interceding for their attackers. I say this as a Jew! The whole theme of Isaiah is that Israel is stubborn, deaf, blind, rebellious, lost and needing a savior. Yet you want to turn Israel into an innocent suffering servant??? I have already shown PLENTY of scriptures in Isaiah were “the servant” is starkly contrasted from Israel. Also, you have forgotten that God was “pleased” to do this!! This mean that Israel was innocent while being tortured by gentile Christians throughout these years. It also means that God was pleased with the destruction of the Jewish people (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE INNOCENT!!!) You and Tovia are completely missing the boat on this one. Let me prove it to you.
Tovia claims that the servant is clearly identified in the previous chapters. He then gives a list of texts which prove his claim:
Is 41:8-9 YOU Israel are my servant,
IS 44;1-2 yet hear now o jacob My servant,
Is 44:21remember these o Jacob and iseal for thou are my servant,
This seems like an iron clad case right?? The only problem is that Tovia has skipped the closest “servant” passage in relation to the 4th servant song!!! It also seems evident that he skipped it for A REASON.
Here it is:
4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of them that are taught, that I should know how to sustain with words him that is weary; He wakeneth morning by morning, He wakeneth mine ear to hear as they that are taught. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was **not** rebellious (Israel called rebellious in Isaiah 42: 19, 20,25) , neither turned away backward. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my checks to them that plucked off the hair; I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore have I not been confounded; therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand up together; who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? Behold, they all shall wax old as a garment, the moth shall eat them up. 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, ****that obeyeth the voice of HIS SERVANT****? though he walketh in darkness, and hath no light, let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that gird yourselves with firebrands, begone in the flame of your fire, and among the brands that ye have kindled. *****This shall ye have of My hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow*****. (Is 50:4-11)
“This shall ye have from my hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.” The servant is the speaker! THERE IS NO WAY TO AVOID THIS REALITY!! This entire argument is a house of cards. Every person I hear making it is merely parroting the thoughts of Tovia. Think for yourselves! Don’t let other people tell you what the “context is” while hiding verses which don’t fit their “context”.
Thankyou Jono and Michael for your lessons. Its quite telling that some of your audience struggle with the idea that Torah is explicit about atonement which dashes the fairly tale that many are still caught up in, even though they seem to deny it. Was that a rooster i heard in the background Dave?
Thankyou also to Sophiee, your replies are excellent and give food for thought on a range of topics, well done!
Dave — I’m surprised that you agree that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices resumed. That is true — but then what purpose did the “sacrifice” of Jesus accomplish? Nothing.
Today’s Haftarah reading shows yet again that Jesus was not a sacrifice – and indeed that sacrifices are not really wanted or needed by G-d. “Samuel said, ‘Does G-d delight as much in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying G-d’s voice? Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams. ” 1 Samuel 15:22.
G-d does not need sacrifices.
It is better to obey G-d and His Torah than it is to bring sacrifices.
So why do Christians insist that Jews need blood sacrifices?
Why do missionaries think that Jesus needs to be the “ultimate sacrifice” when the Torah tells us the opposite? The Christian bible lies to them and tells them that you have to have blood to atone for sins — when the Torah teaches the exact opposite.
Missionaries seem to think that sacrifices are magic. There is something that magically wipes away your sins when you kill a sheep (or Jesus). This concept of sacrifices is a very pagan, bloodthirsty god concept and has nothing to do with Jewish sacrifices at all.
G-d gave sacrifices to man because man needed them. G-d doesn’t need them (or even truly want them) – it was a gift from Him to us. It is pretty much the reverse of what missionaries claim it to be.
First a few interesting facts. #1 – the animals sacrificed by Jews were all worshiped by pagans as gods.
Did you know that?
Think back to those conversations between Moses and Pharaoh – Moses explained that the Jews were going to sacrifice the Egyptian gods – and that is why he wanted to take the Jews away from the Egyptian populace to do so. “’What we will sacrifice to HaShem our L-rd is sacred to the Egyptians. Could we sacrifice the sacred animal of the Egyptians before their very eyes and not have them stone us?” Sh’mot / Exodus 8:22.
Ergo killing false pagan gods showed that Jews did not respect those false gods and indeed had no fear of those gods. Jews were used to bringing sacrifices and this is why G-d permitted them. Qorban gave man a way to feel closer to G-d by giving Him something of value (be it money, flour, an animal, etc.) and He did so by having Jews sacrifice pagan gods – kosher, domesticated animals at that.
In pagan religions the gods were bloodthirsty and needed blood to be satisfied. In Judaism G-d permitted man to bring sacrifices because man needed them — He needs nothing.
In his Guide to the Perplexed (3:46), the Rambam explains that the nations of the world that worshipped animals generally worshipped one of three domestic animals: either sheep (as did the Egyptians, Targum Onkeles Shemot 8:22), goats (as in Vayikra 17:7) or cows (as in India, until today). In order to remove any reverent thoughts for these animals from Jewish minds, Hashem commanded us to take specifically these three animals, and to slaughter them and burn them on the Mizbe’ach.
In 3:46 of the Guide the Rambam wrote “We know that the Egyptians would worship the Zodiac sign of the sheep (Aries). To this end, they banned the slaughter of sheep and despised sheep traders and shepherds (Ex.8:22,Bereshit 46:34 ) …. It was for this very reason that we were commanded to slaughter the Paschal lamb, daubing its blood – in Egypt – on the doorways, in full view. This was to cleanse ourselves of those (idolatrous) views and to publicize the very opposite; in order to internalize the notion that the very act that they (Egypt) expect to bring our destruction ( ie. the slaughter of the gods) will save us from destruction; ‘And HaShem will pass over the door and not let the destroyer enter and smite your home.’”
Additional thoughts are found in Midrash Rabbah, too. “You will find that when Israel were in Egypt, they served idols, which they were reluctant to abandon, for it says: “They did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes” (Ezekiel 20:8). G-d then said to Moses: ‘As long as Israel worship Egyptian gods, they will not be redeemed; go and tell them to abandon their evil ways and to reject idolatry.’ This is what is meant by: “Draw out and take your lambs”(Sh’mot / Exodus 12:21), that is to say: draw away your hands from idolatry and take for yourselves lambs, thereby slaying the god Egypt and preparing the Passover. Only through this will the L-rd pass over you.”
G-d does not need blood. The Torah tells us time and again that even when we do use blood to atone for sins, they are only minor sins or mistakes on the part of individuals. On Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) the sins of the Jewish nation were sent away on a live goat (the “scapegoat”).
The words spoken by the prophet Samuel to Saul are repeated time and again in the T’nach – G-d neither desires, wants or needs sacrifices. G-d wants you to be a good person, and He has given you a guideline on how best to live your lives (Torah). To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]
And since when did “for” mean the same as “because”? They are diametrically opposite. To do something “for” someone is quite different than to do something “because of someone.” The servant does not suffer FOR anyone (aka to atone for their sins) — the servant suffers because of the evil actions of the people who have mistreated him. See the difference?
“Fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” D’varim / Deut 24: 16 means exactly what it says — G-d does not punish one person for the sins of another person. Each person is responsible for his / her own sins — and vicarious atonement is NOT biblical.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O G-d, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]
But if from there you seek the Eternal your G-d, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]
He prays to G-d and finds favor with him, he sees G-d’s face and shouts for joy; he is restored by G-d to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]
Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]
Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: “Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of G-d rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]
With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted G-d? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your G-d. [Micah 6:6-8]
In Ezekiel 18 we are told yet again that a righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked. This alien notion was condemned by Ezekiel. Read Ezekiel 18:20-23 — it says that true repentance alone washes a person lean of all iniquities; every one of his sins are forgiven in Heaven. “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the L-rd G-d. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?”
G-d doesn’t want the wicked to die — He wants them to repent of his sins (not a word about sacrifices!!).
No sacrifices, Dave.
No vicarious atonement (which is FORBIDDEN).
Qorbans are ONE way to atone for very specific sins — they were never the only way to atone. And as we’ve discussed before there are many things that are used for qorban (translated as sacrifice) and these can include money, jewelry, flour, etc.
If you start with Leviticus 4 and read on you’ll find the following:
Sin Offerings for the High Priest
Sin Offerings for the Community
Sin Offerings for the King
Sin Offerings for Commoners
The Adjustable Guilt Offering
The Meal Offering for Guilt
The Misappropriation Sacrifice
The Offering for Questionable Guilt
Offerings for Dishonesty
The High Priest’s Offering
Purification of a Leper
The Poor Leper’s Offering
Priestly Yom Kippur Offering
Communal Yom Kippur Offering
Fast on Yom Kippur
I stopped at Leviticus 16, because these should make it clear enough that there are many, many different types of offerings and they are not all inclusive. Some are for priests, some for kings, some for commoners, some for the entire community and some for individuals. Just start at Leviticus chapter 4 and read forward.
And just as there are many of different reasons for sacrifices, so too are there many different rules. So to synopsize:
1. there are different qorbans (sacrifices) for different people
2. there are different qorbans (sacrifices) for different purposes – some for peace, some for sin, some for guilt, some to give thanks, etc.
3. There are distinct qorbans (sacrifices) for individuals, the community, kings, and priests. Each has its own purpose.
4. The goat sent off into the wilderness is not halachally sentenced to death. Torah decrees that it be sent far away.
Keep in mind that after the Exodus and prior to Sinai there were NO sacrifices yet G-d forgave the sins of the Israelites many, many times during that period.
Likewise there were no sacrifices in Egypt prior to the paschal lamb (although Moses asks to bring them).
Daniel did not bring sacrifices, and yet he was righteous.
So it helps to keep in mind that qoran is merely ONE way to atone and repent, not the only way. Prayer wasn’t a “substitution” as many suggest — it was always there.
Where in a sin sacrifice is all the blood for INTENTIONAL sins? Things like murder, adultery, etc?
There aren’t any!
Most qorbans (sacrifices) have nothing to do with sin. Most are for giving thanks, they are peace offerings, etc. The few qorbans which atone for sin are VERY specific (only chatat and asham — for accidental sin and guilt offers). Qorbanot are only brought for sins already committed, not for future sins.
One last thing, Dave, you say you are “not buying it” that Israel is the servant in Isaiah 53 — even though Isaiah himself names Israel time and time again as the servant.
Fine.
But you have also not proven that the servant is Jesus. Forget for a moment your obsession with proving that the servant can’t possibly be the Jews. . . how in heaven’s name do you convince yourself that it is Jesus?
If Jesus is G-d then whose servant is he? How can he be both master and servant?
If this were about Jesus:
1. where are his living, breathing descendents from his zera?
2. when did he die multiple deaths?
3. when did he die with the rich?
4. when was he buried with the poor?
5. How can one describe Jesus as non-violent? (Moneychangers ring a bell?)
How do you explain all those passages where the servant is referred to in the plural? Isaiah 53:10 says “their lives (life force / nefesh) needed only to acknowledge their guilt.” “their lives = plural”.
Isaiah 53:5 is also plural. It isn’t “by his stripes we are healed.” Nope. “through THEIR (plural, not singular) wounds we would be healed.”
Indeed, one can apply a word or sentence out of context to anyone — Rabbi Moshe Shulman proved this in his excellent article “The Messianic Rooster” where he applied “proof texts” to his rooster.
The servant is usually identified as Israel — and this includes many Christian translations — however it wouldn’t matter if it were someone else — we know for certain it isn’t Jesus because he doesn’t meet the criteria in Isaiah 53.
You have selectively quoted Isaiah to show that Israel will “lay down in sorrow” — but you stopped there, proof texting and ignoring the passages which say G-d will never desert the Jews. Chapters are a Christian invention — so why didn’t you go on a few lines past your stopping point? “For the L-rd shall console Zion, He shall console all its ruins, and He shall make its desert like a paradise and its wasteland like the garden of the L-rd; joy and happiness shall be found therein, thanksgiving and a voice of song. Hearken to Me, My people, and My nation, bend your ears to Me, when Torah shall emanate from Me, and My judgment [shall be] for the light of the peoples, I will give [them] rest..” Isaiah 51:3-4. G-d is speaking BTW. Read Isaiah in context and it all becomes clear.
As you yourself have written, the Temple will be rebuilt and Jews will be vindicated in the messianic age. Zechariah 8:23 doesn’t say people will grab the hem of a Christian in the messianic age for they have heard G-d is with the Christian, but no this will happen to the Jews.
Time and again G-d tells us that Jews will be punished for our sins — and that only a remnant will remain (this is as far back as D’varim / Deuteronomy chapter 4). He also says that some of the Jews who turned away will return — and He will take them back. . . the Jews suffer — and then we are redeemed. This seems to be the big picture you are missing.
No worries Donald. I’m thankful to Jono for actually showing my posts. I’m surprised.
I understand how you could see my argument as circular. Part of the “circle” is not getting a straight forward answer about the glaring problems with this logic. Which is really Tovia’s logic that everyone else has digested thoroughly. Let me summarize where we are on each point I raised in the first post.
1.) Obviously I knew already that Jews don’t believe in human for human sacrifice. Sophiee then listed the “usual suspect” verse which most people think are prohibiting vicarious atonement. Yet each verse she listed was about “how sin is accounted for”. Like the parable “the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are blunted”. This has nothing to do with vicarious atonement. Its simply stating that we can’t hold the children responsible for the sins of the parents. I also addressed Exodus 32, where most Jews claim that God condemned human for human sacrifice. I showed that this was not the case and that even Moses knew that it was possible to offer himself for others.
2.) My original question remains. No matter what translation you use, its impossible to deny that someone in the text of Isaiah 53 is being beaten and dying for the sake of someone else’s “healing”. This means that Isaiah 53 is talking about a human for human sacrifice, whether you believe it was Yeshua or Israel.
3.) This question has not been adequately answered either. Why was God “pleased to crush Israel”? All I have heard are illogical responses so far. But think about it. When you say that Isaiah 53 is about events such as the Holocaust, etc [events where the gentiles have gone too far] and that God isn’t pleased about these events or caused them to come upon Israel and these events were entirely due to the wickedness of the gentiles and, on the other hand, the prophet says that God was indeed pleased with whatever happens in Isaiah 53 and God did indeed cause it to come upon the servant, then these two are contradictory statements for obvious reasons!
4.) Everyone is claiming here that both vicarious atonement and human for human sacrifice don’t exist in the text. Can anyone explain how the suffering and death of the one provides healing and restoration to the other? Because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. This means that the punishment of one party resulted in something positive for another party. This, my friends is the exact definition of VICARIOUS! Not to mention the fact that I still am clueless to how gentiles get to persecute and kill the Jewish people and in the end get healed for it!! That dog won’t hunt.
Thanks for the lively discussion.
Love the rooster joke Trent.
Christianity & Messianity kind of reminds me of the Evolutionists and Climate Alarmists. They are determined to bend and twist evidence to support their belief because they have already come to their own conclusion regardless of the actual context and facts.
I simply see Isaiah 53 reflecting the theme of Deuteronomy 7, 28-30, with Israel as the chosen servant people of our Creator, and not relating to a single individual.
Israel is chosen, blessed, punished, corrected, and restored as an example to the nations that YHVH is the faithful and compassionate God of Israel, the Creator of the universe.
Deu 7:6 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come upon thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to cause you to perish, and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it.
Deu 29:23 even all the nations shall say ‘Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?’
Deu 29:24 then men shall say: ‘Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them forth out of the land of Egypt;
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
“If Jesus is G-d then whose servant is he? How can he be both master and servant?”
That’s simple. Yeshua is NOT God.
“1. where are his living, breathing descendents from his sera?”
—In Ezekiel chapters 40-48 are prophecies concerning the Messianic age to come which have obviously not been fulfilled. In these passages is mentioned the King (“prince”–and son of David) who is also a Priest, the Messiah, and the Laws concerning him and his office. In Ezekiel 46:16-18, God gives the laws concerning the land inheritance of the Messiah’s “sons”! Yes, Yeshua will return and be an everlasting father!
“2. when did he die multiple deaths?”
—“B’motav” means “in his deaths” and “b’moto” means “in his death”. But does this indicate plurality? NO! If it were “b’moteihem/b’motam”, then you would have a point beyond any doubt, since this would mean “in their deaths/in their death”, which is indisputably plural. But this word in Isaiah 53:9 does not support this claim. Here is “b’motav” in Ezekiel 28:
(8) They shall bring thee down to the pit; and thou shalt die the deaths (b’motav) of them that are slain, in the heart of the seas….
(10) Thou shalt die the deaths ( b’motav) of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers; for I have spoken, saith the Lord YHWH.’
—Both examples how the plural for of deaths can be used in the singular.
3. when did he die with the rich?
—You mean the wicked?
4. when was he buried with the poor?”
You mean the rich?
—9And they made his grave with the wicked,
And with the rich his tomb; JPS
5. How can one describe Jesus as non-violent? (Moneychangers ring a bell?)
–This is talking about the fact that Yeshua had done no violent crime deserving of death.
Darren-
You said: “I simply see Isaiah 53 reflecting the theme of Deuteronomy 7, 28-30, with Israel as the chosen servant people of our Creator, and not relating to a single individual.”
Except Deuteronomy is clearly talking about Israel suffering curses amongst the nations FOR ***breaking the covenant***.
According to Tovia and the gang, Israel is NOT AT FAULT HERE. They are suffering because of the sins OF THE GENTILES. Big difference I think.
Dave, very simply if yeshua is not God then worshiping him is pure idolatry
Furthermore it clearly states in exodus that one should not worship any image, form, man or woman etc…. so any way you slice it, any exaltation of yeshua (or any other physical thing) to divine status is explicitly forbidden in Torah.
yosef-
Yes. Worshipping anything other then Yehovah is pure idolatry.
Yeshua said the same thing:
And Yeshua answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship Yehovah your God, and ***Him only*** shall you serve.’” Luke 4:8
John 4:21-24 Yeshua said to her, “Woman, believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship*** the Father***. 22 You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship ***the Father*** in spirit and truth; for such people*** the Father*** seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship ***Him*** must worship in spirit and truth.”
“Did God say He had no desire for burnt offerings?
Another reason why Christians and many Jews do not believe there is a place for burnt offerings any longer is because they believe God Himself said through the prophets He has no desire for them. Here are a couple popular passages that at first appear to support this.
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the Lord. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or goats.” Isaiah 1:11
We need to understand the state of things in Israel at the time Isaiah wrote this. The mind set of the people was that they figured they could do whatever they pleased against the Law of God as long as they offered God the appropriate sacrifice afterwards. In essence, they were trying to appease God… a form of patronage that was repulsive to Him because it totally lacked love for Him, His ways, and true repentance. God had had enough of their patronizing sacrifices. We should understand God to be saying, “I do not delight in the blood of your bulls or of your lambs or goats.” He did not imply that all burnt offerings were repulsive to Him. Just theirs.
The second popular passage is;
“For I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” Hosea 6:6
This passage left out of its context appears quite compelling at face value. Yeshua even quoted it in Matthew 9:13. There he exhorted the Pharisees to go and find out what it meant. This would imply studying the passage in its full context. The very next phrase in Hosea reads: “and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” This is typical Hebrew poetry where the essence of one phrase is repeated in another with different words. God did not say He had absolutely no interest in sacrifice. The obvious point that Yeshua wanted to make was that mercy is preferred, and far better than sacrifice, the same way that true repentance is preferred and better than sacrifice in God’s eyes.
Yeshua commanded others to offer burnt offerings
If, as far as God was concerned, all burnt offerings had become acts of futility by Isaiah’s time, there arises a significant problem in light of the fact that Yeshua spoke of burnt offerings as though they were an everyday acceptable practice.
“Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way, First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.” Matthew 5:23,24
Many Christians think that Yeshua was referring to monetary gifts. In many Christian churches there is a table near the front of the sanctuary that is called an “altar”… from whence comes the evangelical phrase, “altar call”. On this table is placed the congregation’s monetary gifts. These gifts are almost always referred to as “offerings”. There were no such tables called “altars” at the time Yeshua spoke these words. In Yeshua’s day, “altar” meant only one thing… the place on which burnt sacrifices were offered. The monetary gifts were given at a place called “the treasury”. See Mark 12:41-44.
Yeshua, even commanded individuals to go and make a specific burnt offering. After healing a man with leprosy, Yeshua told him;
“…go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4
This offering is commanded in Leviticus 14:1-32 and consists of numerous animal sacrifices. To those who believe Yeshua is the Messiah, the question is, if in fact burnt offerings were acts of futility in God’s eyes, why did Yeshua command this healed leper to offer them? ”
http://judaismvschristianity.com/burnt_offerings.htm
Dave — face facts. Jesus never had children. You are falling back into the old excuse “he’ll do that NEXT time” — which only goes to prove that he was NOT the servant of Isaiah. Anyone can claim someone will “rise again” and do it in the future. That is not fulfilling the prohecy — it is an excuse for failure.
Isaiah = servant will have children
Jesus = did not have children
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
Likewise Jesus did not live a long physical life — yet another part of Isaiah 53 that he does not “fit.”
Isaiah = servant will live a long physical life
Jesus = died in his early 30s
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
Also בְּמֹתָיו (b’motav), “in his deaths”, is a plural – the subject of Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Jesus “plural” did not die. Jesus does not “fit” the servant of Isaiah 53 in this and so many other ways. B’motav is plural, not singular. Ezekiel 28 actually translates it CORRECTLY as plural (you apparently ignore that). Ezekiel 28 uses a related term which is he plural form and in a compound expression, moTEI areiLIM in Ezekiel 28:10, where the term moTEI is the possessive form of the plural, meaning, deaths of …. This phrase is correctly translated in the KJV as the deaths of the uncircumcised. The possessive plural form, im emoTEI, “deaths of” is found in Jeremiah 16:4 and Ezekiel 28:8 where the usage is me-moTEI haLAL “deaths of the slain. “Deaths of the slain”/”m e motei halal” is a possessive plural therefore the compound noun halal, slain, must be understood in the plural. PLURAL Dave.
With both terms in Isaiah 53:8 and 53:9 being plural terms, and noting how both verses, Isaiah refer to the same entity in the singular (collective noun) and in the plural, it follows that the servant cannot be an individual. That means it doesn’t “fit” Jesus.
And Jesus — if he is part of the triune godhead (G-d forbid) is not subserviant to himself. He cannot be both master AND servant.
You reversed Isaiah 53 (dying with the rich) — you said “you mean with the wicked” — this is how the Christian bible reverses Isaiah 53:9 which tells us that the servant will die with the wealthy (Jesus did NOT). and will be buried with the wicked (Jesus was supposedly buried in a rich man’s tomb). Ergo Jesus did the OPPOSITE of Isaiah 53:9 which says “And his grave was set with the wicked, and with the rich in his deaths.”
Grave set with the wicked (Isaiah 53’s servant)
Grave with the rich (Jesus)
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
Died with the rich in his multiple deaths (Isaiah 53’s servant)
Died with criminals (singular) (Jesus)
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
With no deceit in his mouth (servant Isaiah 53:9). Jesus lied to Pilate, he lied to his followers and he lied to his siblings. . . Read John 7 for just one example of his lying.
Isaiah = servant has no deceit
Jesus = lies
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
FYI, Dave, I see why you reversed Isaiah 53:9. You used a KJV mistranslation of Isaiah 53:9
You quoted: “And they made his grave with the wicked, And with the rich his tomb” is not a Jewish translation. It is a lightly reword King James. The 1917 JPS was just a lightly revised King James and thus it contains many of the mistranslation one finds in Christian versions. The Preface to the 1985 JPS admits this: “more modern English versions – such as . . .the Jewish Publication Society’s The Holy Scriputes (1917). . . made extensive use of the King James.”
It reverses and distorts what Isaiah 53 really says which is that the servant will die with the wealthy (Jesus did NOT). and will be buried with the wicked (Jesus was supposedly buried in a rich man’s tomb). Ergo Jesus did the OPPOSITE of Isaiah 53:9 which says “And his grave was set with the wicked, and with the rich in his deaths.”
Here is the 1985 JPS translation: “And his grave was set among the wicked, And with the rich, in his death— Though he had done no injustice And had spoken no falsehood.”
Here is the Judaica Press translation: “And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.”
Here is the Artscroll Stone Edition Translation “He submitted his grave to evil people; and the wealthy submitted to his executions, for committing no crime, and with no deceit in his mouth.”
Grave set with the wicked (Isaiah 53’s servant)
Grave with the rich (Jesus)
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
Died with the rich in his multiple deaths (Isaiah 53’s servant)
Died with criminals (singular) (Jesus)
OPPOSITE OF ISAIAH!
One last thing — even many modern Christian translators are starting to get closer to a true translation of Isaiah 53:9.
NIV “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,”
ASV “And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death.”
NASB “His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death.”
NCV “He was buried with wicked men, and he died with the rich.”
NKJV “And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death.”
They are still ignoring the plurality in “deaths” but they are getting “right” the fact that the servant is buried with the wicked (not rich as with Jesus) and dies with the rich (unlike Jesus who died among criminals).
Having been a Christian for over 25 years and a so called “Messianic” for 5, all I can say is that the Greeks and Romans made a pretty remarkable attempt with their New Testament to turn people away from the God of Israel, but of course, YHVH turned what was evil into good. I now have a new-found love for the God of Israel and He alone, His Torah, and for the Jewish people.
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Isa 45:5 I am YHVH, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am YHVH, and there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.
Why does no one ever consider George Clooney to be the Messiah based on Isaiah 53??? 😉 lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8
I will address your comments shortly Sophiee.
Let me clear the air here because I feel like I keep getting lumped in with the Messianic or even Christian crowd. I’m not offended by this assumption because I realize that most people arguing what I am arguing ARE! Let me first say that I applaud websites like these for shutting down missionaries who seek to lead Jews away from the Torah of Moses, with the clever “believe in Jesus” lie. It is truly a noble cause. But for sake of clarity I would like to briefly define my opinions on religion so people won’t think I’m trying to “convert” Jews on this forum.
I am a Jew who was raised a Christian. My Jewish identity was discovered late in life and I have never claimed it from a religious perspective. I have formally denounce the “apostle” Paul and believe him to be the very “wolf” in sheep’s clothing mentioned by Yeshua and even the Torah! This means that I reject every form of doctrine that Paul cleverly dove tailed onto Yeshua’s movement, which was thoroughly Jewish and Torah centered. This means I reject original sin/total depravity, the trinity, justification by faith, predestination, covenant (replacement) theology and ALL the law abolishing concepts which don’t have fancy names. I also reject ANY EXCLUSIVE SALVATION DOCTRINE, which suggest that one must “believe in Jesus” in order to be justified or “saved” by God. This means that I am not arguing from a perspective of “conversion” like most. I am simply convinced that Yeshua is the most likely messianic candidate. I don’t believe Jews “need” to believe in Yeshua at all but I do think that Yeshua’s message could benefit many Jews.
I am aware of all the “problematic” verses, which seem to suggest that Yeshua wanted others to “believe” in him for salvation. Most of these issues stem from the fact that the word “believe” in the gospels is a mistranslation of the Greek word “Pisteuo” which means “OBEY/TRUST”.
But anyways, let me get back to Sophiee.
You said- “Dave — face facts. Jesus never had children. You are falling back into the old excuse “he’ll do that NEXT time” — which only goes to prove that he was NOT the servant of Isaiah. Anyone can claim someone will “rise again” and do it in the future. That is not fulfilling the prohecy — it is an excuse for failure.”
So my position is that this verse is talking about one man. This same man is said to suffer and die for others while at the same time living out long life and having children. This is NOT convenience logic. It is the practical conclusion of a prophecy pertaining to a man who would die and then live again and produce offspring.
You said- “Likewise Jesus did not live a long physical life — yet another part of Isaiah 53 that he does not “fit”.”
Once again, I believe Yeshua will come back. I realize your premise. You believe that Yeshua is dead, therefor this prophecy couldn’t be about him. Yet I believe that he is alive and will come back to earth and live as a King/Priest (Of Levi not of Melkizedek!) So I hope you can at least appreciate my position on this topic.
You said: “Also בְּמֹתָיו (b’motav), “in his deaths”, is a plural – the subject of Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Jesus “plural” did not die. Jesus does not “fit” the servant of Isaiah 53 in this and so many other ways. B’motav is plural, not singular. Ezekiel 28 actually translates it CORRECTLY as plural (you apparently ignore that). Ezekiel 28 uses a related term which is he plural form and in a compound expression, moTEI areiLIM in Ezekiel 28:10, where the term moTEI is the possessive form of the plural, meaning, deaths of …. This phrase is correctly translated in the KJV as the deaths of the uncircumcised. The possessive plural form, im emoTEI, “deaths of” is found in Jeremiah 16:4 and Ezekiel 28:8 where the usage is me-moTEI haLAL “deaths of the slain. “Deaths of the slain”/”m e motei halal” is a possessive plural therefore the compound noun halal, slain, must be understood in the plural. PLURAL Dave.
“These are examples of a single person being addressed and threatened to die deaths (plural). Now it is often said that these are instances that the word “deaths” refer to the plural “uncircumcised”. Well, that doesn’t excuse the plural use either, because the Tenach shows us that the singular is used in reference to a multitude [e.g. Numbers 23:10; Let me die the death (singular; moth) of the righteous (plural; y’sharim)]. And also verse 8 is a striking example of the plural being applied to a singular person. It speaks of “m’motei chalal b’lev yamim” which translates “in the deaths of one slain in the in the hart of the seas”. The plural (chalalim) is not used here (e.g. Isaiah 66:16, Daniel 11:26)” https://sites.google.com/site/nakdimonspage/isaiah-53-part-2
Be back with the rest soon!
You said- “With both terms in Isaiah 53:8 and 53:9 being plural terms, and noting how both verses, Isaiah refer to the same entity in the singular (collective noun) and in the plural, it follows that the servant cannot be an individual. That means it doesn’t “fit” Jesus.”
Lamo can MOST DEFINITELY be translated in the singular.
#1 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be **his** (lamo) servant. (Gen 9:26)
#2 he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down **thereto**(lamo). (Isaiah 44:15)
#3 for the transgression of my people was **he** (lamo) stricken (Isaiah 53:8)
You said- “And Jesus — if he is part of the triune godhead (G-d forbid) is not subserviant to himself. He cannot be both master AND servant.”
Thankfully Yeshua is not part of any “godhead” or any other “head” for that matter. Yeshua never claimed to be God btw. Paul claimed this about Yeshua. Yeshua actually claimed he was NOT God. Will prove this if you want.
I will get to verse 9 later.
Shalom.
Dave: “Yeshua actually claimed he was NOT God. Will prove this if you want.”
Like you proved Yeshua/Jesus is messiah?
Wow your walking a tight rope here buddy. Now your choosing which parts of the NT to accept (bit like choosing candy at a dispensing machine) when in fact Torah says throw it all out. Its been tampered with, mistranslated, and misinterpreted rendering it unreliable and worthless in my opinion.
I cant imagine why people allow the NT to shape their beliefs, its like watching zombies blindly staggering about refusing to look at any evidence, some call it brainwashing.
I just dont understand the attraction of something that is so dismissed by TaNaKh.
Waiting to see your reply about verse 9, after just watching PM Netanyahu address the house of congress and seeing the anti-semitic responses on YT, i can use a good laugh to cheer me up… haha just kidding.
Trent-
You said: “Like you proved Yeshua/Jesus is messiah?”
Not here to prove Yeshua is the messiah. I was merely responding to the many comments where people suggested that Yeshua claimed some level of deity. My point was that this is an inaccurate charge that neither Yeshua nor his twelve apostle’s claimed…ever! If you want to understand why I believe that Yeshua is the most likely messianic candidate then visit this website:
http://judaismvschristianity.com/messiah.htm
http://judaismvschristianity.com/Messiah2.htm
You said- “Wow your walking a tight rope here buddy. Now your choosing which parts of the NT to accept (bit like choosing candy at a dispensing machine) when in fact Torah says throw it all out”
The Torah does not say this. It does say to reject anything that disagrees with the Torah of Moses. Unfortunately the NT has been severely tampered with. The Gentiles have a horrible record of maintaining documents without embellishing and adding to them. Still, even with all these issues, one can’t help but realize that there two completely different messages in the NT. Yeshua’s message, along with his 12 apostles, who taught repentance and Torah observance. While Paul, Barnabus and Timothy taught law abrogation, justification by “faith” and a new “gentile” covenant. Don’t you think its a bit fishy that Christianity is based almost exclusively in the words of Paul, a man who never knew Yeshua and who clearly was never commissioned as one of his twelve apostles?
For more on Yeshua vs Paul see:
http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html
http://judaismvschristianity.com/The_Law_stands.htm
http://jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/175-pauls-contradictions-of-jesus.html
I hadn’t even got to verse 9 when I stopped my last post. I just looked at the verse and I have already answered this assertion. I have already demonstrated that b’motav can be used in the singular ^^^. The dead sea scrolls also translate it in the singular as well! Maybe this is why many Jewish sages read this passage as a MESSIANIC PASSAGE. Here is a small list of sages who obviously read this verse in the singular…NOT THE PLURAL:
Babylonian Talmud: “The Messiah –what is his name?…The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted…'” (Sanhedrin 98b)
Midrash Ruth Rabbah: “Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): — He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,’ draw near to the throne; `and eat of the bread,’ that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,’ this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities'”
Targum Jonathan: “Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong…”
Zohar: “`He was wounded for our transgressions,’ etc….There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'”
Rabbi Moses Maimonides: “What is the manner of Messiah’s advent….there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place’ (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc….in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived.” (From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)
Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: “having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,’ and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah….This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so.” (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)
BTW. I was pleased to see BB Netenyahu’s speech. Not surprised at the reaction here in the US at all. We have become a nation of cowards. I spent much of my life in the military fighting against Israel’s enemies and training parts of the IDF. It saddens me that we are running out of people who truly want to stand with Israel. I pray it changes somehow.
Our faith seems to come down to what we decide to diligently put our effort into, and that is to relentlessly defend and explain Jesus / Yeshua, or to seek the God of Israel with His Torah, and to support and stand with the Jewish people.
Jesus / Yeshua and the NT appears to have made Isaiah 53 insurmountably complex and distracting. I personally think some things simply aren’t needed to be completely understood or known, except for our own individual effort and desire to live in our Creator’s Torah.
Deu 29:28 The secret things belong unto YHVH our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this Torah.
Darren,
You said- “Our faith seems to come down to what we decide to diligently put our effort into, and that is to relentlessly defend and explain Jesus / Yeshua, or to seek the God of Israel with His Torah, and to support and stand with the Jewish people.”
Why the “either or” stance on this? Its obvious that Yeshua taught others to keep the whole law of Moses so thankfully I don’t have to choose between the two.
You said- “Jesus / Yeshua and the NT appears to have made Isaiah 53 insurmountably complex and distracting. I personally think some things simply aren’t needed to be completely understood or known, except for our own individual effort and desire to live in our Creator’s Torah”
Not really. Whats complex is trying to make this passage refer to the Jewish people. As if Yehovah was pleased to bring disaster on the Jewish people by things like the Shoah. Yet many people cling to this logic without thinking through the implications. Its an easy way to get rid of the “Yeshua dilemma” but it creates more problems then it fixes.
“Deu 29:28 The secret things belong unto YHVH our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this Torah.”
Except this isn’t that big of a secret.
This verse should be considered as well:
2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Prov 25:2
I guess my posts are no longer welcomed then? Shalom.
Dave: “I was merely responding to the many comments where people suggested that Yeshua claimed some level of deity.”
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
John 10:23 “You, a mere man, claim to be God”
In reference to what the Jews understood of his claims.
“I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”
“The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh”
“Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”
“My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him.
Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, “To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”
“And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him.”
“And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshipped him”
“And when they saw him they worshipped him, but some doubted.”
“And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,”
“He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.”
He never does rebuke people for worshipping him?
Now i realise there are some translation gymnastics involved with the NT and you can regard God as Master(adonai) in various places, but this Jesus fella seems to revel in the attention and for the life of me i cant find where he corrects these assertions of deity. Maybe you know of some?
“The Torah does not say this. It does say to reject anything that disagrees with the Torah of Moses.”
SO why do you accept that the NT is blatantly against Torah in places but fail to reject it?
Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Torah:
Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that YHVH is God; there is no other besides him.
> or
Yeshua / Jesus:
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Torah:
Exo 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that YHVH your God is giving you.
> or
Yeshua / Jesus:
Mat 8:21,22 And another of his disciples said to him, Lord, allow me first to go away and bury my father. But Jesus said to him, follow me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.
Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Torah:
Lev 19:3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am YHVH your God.
> or
Yeshua / Jesus:
Luk 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Torah:
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God that I command you.
> or
Yeshua / Jesus:
Mat 5:21,22 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ – But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Mat 5:27,28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ – But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Torah:
Exo 21:23-25 But if injury occurs, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Lev 24:19,20 And when a man causes a blemish in his neighbor, as he has done, so it shall be done to him; break for break, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has given a blemish to be in a man, so it shall be done to him.
> or
Yeshua / Jesus
Mat 5:38,39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ – But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
If we search under our own individually set criteria for a specific outcome, we can very likely prove that we may all be the Messiah.
So we can either accept the Christian view of Jesus, the Messianic view of Yeshua, or the Jewish view of Jesus / Yeshua.
Having been a Christian and a Messianic, I now personally embrace the view of the Jewish people. And I bless them for their insight into the Hebrew Scriptures which were given to them from our Maker.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
You said- “Now i realise there are some translation gymnastics involved with the NT and you can regard God as Master(adonai) in various places, but this Jesus fella seems to revel in the attention and for the life of me i cant find where he corrects these assertions of deity. Maybe you know of some?”
Isn’t it important to read the text IN CONTEXT? I thought that was what this group was known for? For lack of space and time, I will leave you with a link that will thoroughly disprove every sound byte of the gospels you presented above to make your case.
http://judaismvschristianity.com/messiah.htm
BTW, did people prostrate (worship) before king David??
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, ***and the king***. 1 Chron 29:20
“No one… …except through me”
If one were to ask an evangelical Christian if a person can be saved without accepting Jesus as their savior, which to them is synonymous with being born again, you would be answered with, “well, Jesus said…”, and they would go on to quote their end-all-debate passage from the Gospel of John. It is an answer that is to be understood as “no”, and implied that such a person will certainly spend eternity in the torments of the lake of fire. The verse that is quoted and the interpretation that has been laminated on it have been used as a proof-text for so long by evangelists like Billy Graham, that it is almost impossible for anyone to read it anymore without automatically hearing the evangelical’s interpretation. The fact that it is almost always quoted to answer the question if one can be saved without knowing Jesus establishes the false presupposition that the passage has something to do with the question. Thus, we automatically hear the “no” interpretation. But if a person had never heard this passage used this way and read it for the first time, it is doubtful they would come to the same conclusion. And if it had been read in light of everything Yeshua had said in the book of John up to that point, it would have been understood perfectly well… just as those who heard him understood him. The verse you will hear, quoted all by itself is…
“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
There it is! Case closed… right? Unless one accepts Jesus as his savior he will never get to heaven, and therefore he will spend eternity in hell! When reading these words a person can see Billy Graham waving his hand and hear his accent in his thundering authoritative voice as he emphasizes the words “No one”. Not surprisingly, many evangelicals who quote this verse this way couldn’t tell you the context in which it is found or tell you to whom Yeshua was speaking when he said it. This is in spite of the fact that nearly everyone is familiar with the text. It is because this verse has to be ripped out of its context for it to have the full effect of the desired interpretation. After hearing this verse used this way, one would naturally assume that the context in which it was stated must be similar to the debate that precipitated its use by the evangelical. One would expect there to have been a serious discussion, where Yeshua made a statement concerning how one is saved, then a question arose of if there was any hope for others who didn’t find that way, and then we would read what has been portrayed as Yeshua’s hard-nose, exclude-all-others answer. None of this can be found there. There was nothing somber or threatening spoken in this scene at all! On the contrary, Yeshua had just given a sweet, peaceful promise to his disciples, and he spoke these words to them in answer to a question from Thomas…
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going, and how can we know the way?” Yeshua said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:1-6
This was in no way a statement of exclusivity. Yeshua’s emphasis was on “I”, not “No one”. The words “No one” were spoken gently as a sweet assurance and personal promise to his disciples that he would be making sure they got to the place he was going to prepare for them. To be sure, they perfectly understood him this way, because they had also heard him say the Father had committed the judgment of all men to him.
“For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the son.” “For even as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave also to the son to have life in himself. And he gave authority to him to also execute judgment, for he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice. And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life, and the ones having practiced evil in to a resurrection of judgment.” John 5:22,26-29 KJIIV
This is what Yeshua meant by the words, “No one comes to the Father except through me”. Only in the sense that Yeshua will judge every man is how he meant that no one gets to the Father around him. This is true whether a person believes in him or not! All he was saying, and what the disciples heard him say would be along the lines of this paraphrase.
“I told you I will be judging every man and determining where they go, and that includes you! So don’t let your heart be troubled. You know the judge personally. I am the way. Be assured… I will see to it that you get there.”
In summary, it is wrong to use John 14:6 as a proof-text for the evangelical doctrine that suggests unless a man accepts Jesus as his savior, he has no hope of salvation and will therefore spend eternity in the torments of the lake of fire. In John 5:29 Yeshua said that those who have “done good” will be saved and receive a just degree of eternal life.
Many evangelicals honestly believe that unless a Jew accepts Jesus as his savior, he will end up in the lake of fire. It’s hard to express how repulsive this lie is… especially when there are many Jews who keep both great commandments and do good by loving the Lord their God and their neighbors as themselves. Considering Christianity’s horrifying treatment of the Jews throughout most of it’s history, is it any wonder why Jews typically want nothing to do with Christianity’s Messiah? On judgment day, no one will want to be in the shoes of one who misrepresented and made a mockery of the judge to his “brethren”.
http://judaismvschristianity.com/heavenorhell.htm