79 Comments

1. 

   Dave says

   You said- “Exo 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that YHVH your God is giving you.

   > or

   Yeshua / Jesus:
   Mat 8:21,22 And another of his disciples said to him, Lord, allow me first to go away and bury my father. But Jesus said to him, follow me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.

   Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

   Sophiee already made this charge on another blog. Here is how I addressed it:

   https://truth2u.org/2015/02/debunking-365-messianic-prophecies-212-227-rabbi-michael-skobac.html

   bottom of the comments list

2. 

   Dave says

   You said: “Mat 5:21,22 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ – But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

   I’m so glad you brought this up! I assume you believe that Yeshua is somehow changing the law of Moses here…correct? Lets check the Law of Moses:

   Yeshua said- “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment”

   Torah- 17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart Lev 19:17
   18Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear **any grudge** against the children of thy people Lev 19:18

   Yeshua said- whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” Matt 5: 22

   Torah- ‘You shall not go about as a ****slanderer**** among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am Yehovah. Lev 19: 16

   I will get to the rest shortly

3. 

   Dave says

   You said- “Mat 5:27,28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ – But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

   Another swing and a miss. Here is why. The greek word you have translated as “women” should be rendered “married women”. Can we find a written Torah commandment about desiring married women??

   Yes!

   “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. Deut 5: 21

4. 

   Dave says

   You said- “Mat 5:38,39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ – But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

   Yeshua was hitting on a first century misconception about “eye for an eye”. All judicial issues like these were meant to be brought before the elders and Levites. “Eye for an eye, did NOT permit individuals to lash out in anger against those who had done them wrong. THIS WAS THE POINT THAT YESHUA WAS MAKING. Actually, this is the more accurate way to understand the Torah when it comes to these issues. For example:

   18Thou shalt not ****take vengeance****, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people Lev 19:18

   Yeshua was correct. Individuals are not meant to take “eye for an eye” into their own hands. It was meant to be carefully inspected and brought before the Levites.

   Another round goes to Yeshua!

5. 

   Dave says

   The Christian myth is that Yeshua was put to death because he claimed to be God. Even though Yeshua himself corrected the Pharisees when they charged him with this.

   Yeshua answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, You are gods’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?” John 10:34-36

   Did you catch it? Yeshua is quoting a Psalm of David were the word elohim was used to refer to MEN!

   I said, “You are gods (literally “elohim”), and all you are children of the Most High.” Psalm 82:6

   Being a son of God does not make one equal to the Father. This rationale by the religious leaders in John 5:18 was leveled as an accusation so they could find some grounds on which do away with Yeshua. Though being a son of God who came from heaven is not the same as being YHWH, it still made Yeshua much greater than the religious leaders, and many of them were threatened by it.

   So if Yeshua was not killed for “claiming to be God”, why was he killed??

   Yeshua clearly taught adherence to the written Law ONLY. He completely refuted Pharisaic interpretations and Takkanah. Yeshua even used the name Yehovah throughout his ministry! Nehemiah and Keith have made some wonderful discoveries in Shem tob’s Matthew which has Yeshua pronouncing the name 9 TIMES IN IT! This leads us into the real reason why Yeshua was put to death by the High Priest. I believe I can prove below that Yeshua was put to death for pronouncing the name Yehovah in front of the High Priest!

   Consider the following argument.

   Sons of Aaron were prohibited from tearing their garments:

   6And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, ***neither rend your clothes***; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: Lev 10: 6

   Yet in Mark 14, we find the High Priest dong EXACTLY THAT. Now why would he do that? I will answer this after reading Mark 14.

   Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Yeshua, saying, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?”

   Mark 14:61 But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the messiah, the Son of the Blessed?”

   Mark 14:62 Yeshua said, “I am. And you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of ***the Power***, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

   Mark 14:63 Then the high priest ***tore his clothes*** and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?

   Mark 14:64 “You have heard ***the blasphemy!*** What do you think?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

   Many Christians claim that when Yeshua said “I am” he was referring to himself as God. First off, this is impossible because “I am” isn’t even a name of God! See. http://judaismvschristianity.com/I-Am.htm

   So what was Yeshua’s obvious blasphemy??

   Mark 14:62 Yeshua said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of ***the Power***, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

   Yeshua is paraphrasing Psalm 110, which does NOT say “the Power”. It says Yehovah! This is the word that Yeshua spoke in front of the High Priest and I can prove it.

   As I have already shown above, the Torah prohibits the sons of Aaron from tearing their garments. So why on earth would the High Priest go against the written Torah?? Because they had copied the Pharisees and banned the name of Yehovah from being pronounced!! Actually, they made up a new law which actually demands that the High Priest tear his robes (in complete opposition to the Torah) upon hearing the name of Yehovah being pronounced!!!

   This bogus first century law can be found here: Mishnah Sanhedrin VII, 5

   So you see. Yeshua was put to death for proclaiming the name of the Father in public. NOT because he claimed to be God.

   Shalom

6. 

   Dave says

   Sanhedrin, Chapter Seven, Mishnah Five

   Introduction
   Mishnah five deals with the blasphemer and the special circumstances of his trial.

   Mishnah Five
   1) The blasphemer is punished only if he utters [the divine] name.
   2) Rabbi Joshua b. Korcha said: “The whole day [of the trial] the witnesses are examined by means of a substitute for the divine name:, ‘may Yose smite Yose.”
   3) When the trial was finished, the accused was not executed on this evidence, but all persons were removed [from court], and the chief witness was told, ‘State literally what you heard.’
   4) Thereupon he did so, [using the divine name].
   5) The judges then arose and tore their garments, which were not to be resewn.
   6) The second witness stated: “I too have heard thus” [but not uttering the divine name], and the third says: “I too heard thus.”

   Explanation
   With regards to the blasphemer the Torah states (Lev. 24:15): “Anyone who blasphemes his God shall bear his guilt. If he also pronounces the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death.” From these verses the Rabbis learned that the blasphemer was obligated for the death penalty only if he used God’s four letter name.
   The problem with putting the blasphemer on trial is that when the witnesses testify and repeat what they heard, they too will be blaspheming God’s name. Although they certainly would not receive the death penalty for doing so, it was nevertheless seen to be unacceptable for even a witness to repeat what he heard, especially in a public trial. Therefore, during the court’s deliberation they used a code word, “may Yose smite Yose”. However, in order to complete the trial the witnesses needed to state what they heard explicitly at least one time. Therefore, at the end of the trial they would remove everyone from the court and only the witnesses and the judges would remain. They would then ask the eldest witness to say explicitly what he heard. So painful was it for the judges to hear God’s name being blasphemed that they would tear their clothes and not repair them. This was a typical sign of mourning. The remaining witnesses would not need to say exactly what they heard, thereby repeating the blasphemy. Rather they would merely say that they heard what the first person heard.

7. 

   Darren says

   Did this program break the comments record Jono?

   Anyway, as a “stranger”, I have the greatest respect for the teachings of the Rabbinic and Karaite Jews, who are in agreement both waiting for their anointed King, The Messiah to come.

   1Ki 8:41-43 And concerning a stranger who is not of Your people Israel, but who comes out of a far country for Your name’s sake; for they shall hear of Your great name and of Your strong hand and of Your stretched-out arm; and if he shall come and pray toward this house, hear in Heaven Your dwelling-place, and do according to all that the stranger calls to You for, so that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You, as Your people Israel do , and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Your name.

8. 

   Dave says

   It did get a little involved there didn’t it??

   Anyways, I am thankful for the honest discussion and I would like to echo the words of Darren as well. I am very thankful for the work that goes on here on this website. Both to Rabbinic Jews and Karaite Jews. I realize I could be wrong on my messianic views but I find it remarkable that most people reject Yeshua because of mostly Pauline logic. A man who never knew Yeshua.

   It seems apparent to me that Yeshua was not who Christianity made him out to be and this fact alone fascinates me. Is it possible that a myth was created around the true future messiah of Israel? Is it possible that Paul single handedly refashioned the “Jesus movement” to reflect his own gnostic/Jewish hybrid religion?

   Either way, I think it is high time that Christians/Messianic’s see the error of their ways when it comes to Jewish proselytizing. A man who keeps the commandments is a righteous man, regardless of his personal views on the messiah. Thank you Jono for exposing this bigoted mindset which seems to be everywhere.

   Shalom

9. 

   Trent says

   Heya Dave, nice reply.
   You say “I realize I could be wrong on my messianic views but I find it remarkable that most people reject Yeshua because of mostly Pauline logic. A man who never knew Yeshua.’
   I sometimes find that if people are defending Jesus they come from this angle, seemingly to find the weak link in the christ narrative in the NT. Whereas those that reject your argument are more likely to reject christ based on “non conformance” to Torah and at times outright violation of Torah. The dodgey NT translations and blatent mistranslations of TaNaKh to validate Jesus just add weight, but arent the sole reasons why most people reject the Jesus/Yeshua narrative. Thats my understanding anyways 😉

10. 

    John says

    I don’t understand with the guys in this post. It is very clear and accurate since Sophie started her comments. It is clear that Christianity is a complete falsehood. All Christians in this post please debunking the statements that you can’t prove. Meaning, if you are claiming to be the Messiah, you have prove to us that you are one, by matching yourself to the prophets prophecies. The burden of proof is on the Christians side to prove. You gentiles can’t go about teaching the Jews about the Bible. Absurd, Jews are the once who wrote the Bible so it should be the other way around. Leave the Jews alone. If you read the Bible in Hebrew, you wouldn’t be a Christian now. Thank you.

11. 

    Darren says

    As a “gentile” I sincerely appreciate people like Rabbi Skobac, Nehemia Gordon, and Yoel HaLevi having such patience and understanding who are open to dialogue with us, even with our past Christian and Messianic baggage and all.

    Unfortunately I haven’t been able to get such a response with the few local Jewish communities in my area.

12. 

    Dave says

    John,

    I am not a Christian. Sorry you don’t like my opinions I guess.

13. 

    John says

    Dave,
    It’s not your’s or my opinion that matters here. But what’s God opinion matters.

    All,
    Opinions doesn’t count when it comes to truth, the Word is the only thing that authenticates the religion. No matter you turn water to wine or you turn water to rum, or any other miracle under the sun, it doesn’t prove anything.read due 13 which will elaborate for the trust in miracle. Stick to the word in context in Hebrew.
    Nothing personal here. It’s just a blog of comments.
    Thank you.

    Ps. Christians ending their prayers in the name of Jesus is shear idolatry and broke the very second commandment of God.

14. 

    Dave says

    John,

    I find comments like yours interesting. Especially in light of the fact that I have responded to many these types of charges already in this thread. Might want to scroll through the comments. I never claimed that miracles prove anything. I defended the notion that Yeshua taught and kept the whole Torah…including animal sacrifices and stoning commands for certain circumstances. So unless you want to give me a specific example of Yeshua breaking or teaching to break the Torah I would refrain from using the Deut 13 card.

    You are still trying to peg me as some Christian trying to convert Jews EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ALREADY RENOUNCED SALVATION VIA “BELIEF” IN YESHUA. I am simply arguing the logic in the post. I started out by showing the many glaring holes in this logic when it comes to Israel being the servant of Isaiah 53. So unless you truly believe that God was pleased to bring about the Shoah/holocaust upon Jews in order to make them a sacrifice for Gentiles you might want to go back to the drawing board. My intention wasn’t even to discuss Yeshua but I was requested on this thread to prove why Yeshua was the likely candidate. That is why I responded.

    You said: “You gentiles can’t go about teaching the Jews about the Bible.”

    First off, I am a Jew. Secondly, your point is illogical to begin with. To suggest that Jews today maintain some sort of exclusive ability to interpret the text is not 100% accurate. Babylonian concepts are very prevalent in modern Jewish logic as well as Christian logic. Now I do believe that Karaite Jews possess some of the most accurate and logical opinions on Torah law, mainly because of their diligence to stick to the text during centuries Pharisaic additions/subtractions. But it is not some inherent gift that Jews have been divinely given to interpret. And it certainly isn’t a reason for rejecting logical interpretations of Scripture…even from a Gentile!

    P.S. Yeshua commanded us to pray to the Father and to hallow the name Yehovah. I could care less about how Christians pray.

15. 

    John says

    Dave,
    I never addressed the rest of the comments to you. “Dear all “. I know you are not Christian , I have read all the posts before.

16. 

    Dave says

    So who were you addressing them to? There were no “Christians” on this comments thread.

17. 

    John says

    Dave,
    Take the comments which was addressed to you and the rest is not applicable to you.

18. 

    Dave says

    Ok John….no problem.

    “Dear all”-

    When determining or validating the actions of a prophet it is imperative to actually make logical conclusions based on the actions and words of that very prophet. This means that judging a prophet like Yeshua for the disgusting doctrines of Paul’s “Christianity” is an illogical method of analysis according to Torah. As many on this thread already stated, a man will be responsible for himself and ONLY himself. So it may be worth considering whether there is a difference between the blasphemous doctrines of Chrstianity and the words and deeds of Yeshua himself. The only reason why I maintain that Yeshua is the most likely messianic candidate is predicated on my persuasion that he ONLY taught the written Torah of Moses and repentance. I believe the stance he took was the very reason he was set up and then finally murdered. For those who appreciate the name of Yehovah, you may want to do a little research and discovered who was the last prophet who taught us to pronounce our Fathers name. Even in the face of certain death! You will find that there were NONE in the first century who decided to expose the man made religious systems for adding and subtracting from the written Torah. Until this prophet is heard we will continue to see chaos and destruction for the people of Israel. When we finally SHEMA him and repent with our whole heart we will be restored to the land. Its not about “belief” in Yeshua, its about REPENTANCE.

    17And Yehovah said unto me: ‘They have well said that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put **My words** in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that **I** shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto **My words** which he shall speak in **My name**, I will require it of him. Deut 18: 17-19

19. 

    jono vandor says

    https://truth2u.org/2014/02/jono-and-jason-a-prophet-greater-than-moses.html

20. 

    Dave says

    Seen it Jono. Would be more than happy to debate this one as well. This “prophet” was clear differentiated from other prophets who could have dreams and visions. The prophet (singular) mentioned is referring to one who would communicate the words of Yehovah directly (due to face to face relationship). Not to prophets plural which had already existed amongst Yehovah’s people. The office of prophet was already firmly intact an needed no clarification.

21. 

    Dave says

    The modern Rabbinic stance on this verse is a poorly thought out argument which was developed for the SOLE PURPOSE of discrediting Yeshua as “the prophet”. In doing so they have actually delegitimized the special role of Moses and the unique way that Yehovah decided to communicate with him because of his meekness and obedience. Consider the following verses which clearly contrast the office of prophet, from a unique prophet:

    6And He said: ‘Hear now My words: if there be a prophet among you, I Yehovah do make Myself known unto him in a vision, I do speak with him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is **not so**; he is trusted in **all** My house; 8with him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude Yehovah doth he behold; wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?’ 9And the anger of Yehovah was kindled against them (Aaron and Miriam); and He departed. Numb 12: 6-9

    We have a couple of things going on here. First off, we have a clear distinction being made between the prophets (plural) and the prophet (Moses). Secondly, we clearly see that the office of prophet was already establish amongst the Hebrews, there was no need for Moses to define this obvious role as Rabbinic sources claim he was doing in Deut 18.

22. 

    Sophiee Saguy says

    Dave, the word נָבִיא navi (“a prophet” or “prophets”) in D’varim / Deuteronomy 18 is an implied plural. It is entirely possible for a singular noun to have a plural sense in English, so why not in Hebrew? The language used in these two verses is equivalent to

    “[From time to time] He/I will set up a prophet for you/them”

    or even

    “[Whenever they need one] He/I will set up a prophet for you/them”;

    the plural sense is implied in both of these possible translations, and it is equally implied in the original Hebrew

    נָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵֽאַחֶ֙יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְיָ֣ אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ
    נָבִ֨יא אָקִ֥ים לָהֶ֛ם מִקֶּ֥רֶב אֲחֵיהֶ֖ם כָּמ֑וֹךָ

    In Hebrew, the plural form of a noun is only used when an explicit number is present, and even then only when the number is less than 20. For example, how many times do we read about אַרְבָּעִים יוֹם וְאַרְבָּעִים לַֽיְלָה, “forty days and forty nights”? But literally those words mean “forty day and forty night”, because יוֹם yom and לַֽיְלָה laylah are both singular forms!

    The phrases נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶֽיךָ כָּמֹֽנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְיָ אֱלֹהֶֽיךָ and נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּֽרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמֽוֹךָ should therefore be translated either as “[From time to time] He/I will set up a prophet for you/them”,

    or using an explicit plural, as in

    “He/I will set up prophets for you/them”.

    Translated in this way, it becomes immediately obvious that Moses (in verse 15), and G-d Himself (in verse 18) were respectively referring collectively to all of the prophets who were sent to prophesy to the Jews.

    Also, remember the words of D’varim / Deuteronomy 13:

    “[2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder,

    [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying “Let us follow gods of others that you did not know (at Sinai) and we shall worship them

    [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul.

    [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave.

    [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst.” (Artscroll) Devarim / Deuteronomy 13)

    If someone adds to or subtracts from the Torah — changing any of its lessons and mitzvot — they are a false prophet. D’varim 18 says there will be prophets after Moses — and this person is extrapolating something that is not there — that these prophets will change or “add to” Torah. Jesus changed the Torah mitzvot showing clearly that he was a false prophet per the Torah’s definition. D’varim / Deuteronomy 18:20 20 “Also, if any ‘prophet’ ever dares to declare in My Name anything that I have not commanded him to say—or if he declares it in the name of any idols—that ‘prophet’ must die!”

    All of that is immaterial when one realizes that prophecy had died long before Jesus supposedly lived. Jesus was not a prophet.

23. 

    Dave says

    What a reach!

24. 

    Dave says

    Already addressed everyone’s false claims about Yeshua adding or subtracting to the Torah. ^^^^ Also, Yeshua made many valid future prophecies which validate his role as a prophet.

    Moses was clearly talking about a prophet (singular) who would be deferent from other prophets who could have visions and dreams. Moses states that this prophet will be “like him”. Its important to remember that YHVH spoke to Moses face to face and in a completely different fashion then all other prophets.

25. 

    Sophiee Saguy says

    Dave, I already explained that D’varim / Deuteronomy 18 uses implied plurality (common in the Hebrew language). The noun navua appears all forms (singular, plural, male, female, with and without
    prepositions, in various inflections, etc.), on 315 occasions in the T’nach. Generally, whenever this term is applied with the definite article (and, occasionally, with an additional preposition or conjunction), such ha’naVI the prophet, ve ha’naVI (and the prophet,), la’naVI (to the prophet), etc., it always refers to a specific individual. In contrast, whenever the term is applied without a definite article (and, occasionally, with an additional preposition or conjunction), ve navi (a prophet) or navi (prophet) or le naVI (to a prophet) unless connected explicitly with a name or someone identified elsewhere in the nearby text, it is used in a generic sense.

    Hebrew 101 Dave.

    If you wnat to think Moses was tlaking about one specific prophet — why not say that “prophet” was Mohamad (that is what the Muslims claim). Or how about Joseph Smith of Mormon fame? Who decides which “one” prophet you are speaking about?

    And if it is only about ONE prophet do you ignore Isiaah, Ezekiel, Joshua, Malachi and all the other prophets in the T’nach?

    If, for the sake of argument, one were to assume that the prophet being described here is to be only one special future prophet, then it follows that all prophets who came after Moses, except for Moses and this particular prophet, were false prophets. Moreover, one must not ignore the warning found in D’varim / Deuteronomy 18:20 concerning the fate of a false prophet. This is, of course, absurd – a false conclusion that would result from a false assumption.

    Not to mention, Dave, that prophecy was long gone 2000 years ago. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets — Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

    The fact that true prophecy will cease at some point in time is stated “clearly and explicitly” in a prophetic way, in the T’nach. Psalms 74:9(JPT) – “We have not seen our signs; there is no longer a prophet, and no one with us knows how long.”

    The era of prophecy officially came to an end 23 centuries ago. The last of the prophets were alive before the First Holy Temple was destroyed in 423 BCE. Some survived the 70-year Babylonian exile and lived to see the building of the Second Temple.

    Ezekiel prophesied in Babylonia, and three prophets, Chaggai, Zachariah and Malachi, were members of the “Great Assembly” that led the people in the first years of the return from Babylon. The Men of the Great Assembly codified our bible (T’nach) and when they died “prophecy departed from Israel.”

    D’varim / Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: “the word does not materialize or come to pass.” As the Christian bible asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: “.this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.” (Matthew 24:34).

    Didn’t happen Dave.

    This statement follows a description of signs of the End of Days. “This generation” of course died about 2,000 years ago and the prediction was never actualized. Jesus explicitly describes his Second Coming: “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn (24:30).” It will involve suffering “never to be equaled again (24:21).”

    This did not happen when the Temple was destroyed.

    The idea that Jesus is referring to a future generation fails too.

    Throughout this speech Jesus refers to his audience as “you.” When Jesus says, “when you see.. (v.15)” the NIV itself explains this as referring to events that happened long ago. Jesus tells his audience they will live to see “all these things” and “all” includes past events and the Second Coming. Obviously Jesus falsely predicted he would return in his audience’s lifetime.

    That is just one of many false prophecies by Jesus. We can move on to “not one stone” remaining in Jerusalem if you like. Also false.

26. 

    Dave says

    Sophiee,

    Thank you for the brilliant Hebrew lesson.

    The reason the word should be translated in the singular is very simple. The point to this passage was that YHVH was going to raise up a prophet “like Moses” who spoke to YHVH face to face. This is the clear contextual reading of the passage that you are trying to blur. Of course the the word “could” be used in the plural sense. More on this later.

    Muhammed and Joseph Smith are not potential candidates because they did not communicate Torah, or keep it for that matter. Nor did they make valid prophetic statements.

    You said:”And if it is only about ONE prophet do you ignore Isiaah, Ezekiel, Joshua, Malachi and all the other prophets in the T’nach?”

    Your question assumes that the office of prophet was not already established amongst Hebrews. In fact prophets were already operating before these words were spoken! This passage is referring to a prophet “like Moses” who spoke with YHVH face to face! None of the prophets you mentioned spoke to YHVH in this manner. This does not mean they were not valid prophets? Listen again to what the Torah says about prophets “plural”.

    6And He said: ‘Hear now My words: if there be a prophet among you, I the LORD do make Myself known unto him in a vision, I do speak with him in a dream. Numbers 12: 6

    So YHVH communicates to prophets (plural) in either visions or dreams. This is the way that ALL the prophets attest to YHVH communicating with them! Now listen again to what it says about Moses:

    7My servant Moses is not so; he is trusted in all My house; 8with him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD doth he behold; wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?’ Numbers 12: 7-8

    The point of this passage is to show that YHVH has TWO different types of prophets. He has prophets (plural) who YHVH communicates with through visions and dreams like Isaiah, Ezekiel etc. Then there is Moses who YHVH says He trusts more then other prophets. With Moses YHVH communicates in a much more clear and personal way. Aaron and Miriam’s failure to realize this reality cause YHVH to become very anger. Now lets look at what Moses says about this future prophet (plural):

    15A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, **like unto me**; unto him ye shall hearken Deut 18

    It is a fact that Moses was already considered a unique type of prophet at this point. Why on earth would Moses say a “prophet like me” in this passage if he wasn’t referring to another unique prophet to come in the future??? So all of your arguments which state that I am delegitimizing the role of regular prophets are clearly debunked.

    You said: “Not to mention, Dave, that prophecy was long gone 2000 years ago. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets — Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.”

    OK…and where do you base this logic? It is certainly not in the Tanakh.

    You said: “The fact that true prophecy will cease at some point in time is stated “clearly and explicitly” in a prophetic way, in the T’nach. Psalms 74:9(JPT) – “We have not seen our signs; there is no longer a prophet, and no one with us knows how long.”

    WHAT A JOKE!! Are you seriously trying to pull a fast one on me??? This text says NOTHING about prophecy “ceasing” in the future!! It is talking about the barren state of exiled Israel who had no current prophet. Hey, at least you are attempting to prove this bogus Rabbinic theory with scripture though.

27. 

    Dave says

    You said “Ezekiel prophesied in Babylonia, and three prophets, Chaggai, Zachariah and Malachi, were members of the “Great Assembly” that led the people in the first years of the return from Babylon. The Men of the Great Assembly codified our bible (T’nach) and when they died “prophecy departed from Israel.”

    I hope you realize that you have just completely contradicted yourself. You said this earlier:

    You said: “Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry”

    Unless you meant literally in the land of Israel which of course I would agree with. Why would there be a prophet literally in Israel if no Jews were there? The point is that prophecy continued to exist AFTER the Babylonian captivity and there is no logical reason in the Torah/Tanakh to suggest it would have to stop. It is a convenient argument made by Rabbi’s who want to maintain their mantle of authority. Obviously the potential of their being any other “true” prophet is too much of a danger for the Rabbi’s to deal with.

    You said: “D’varim / Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: “the word does not materialize or come to pass.” As the Christian bible asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: “.this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.” (Matthew 24:34).”

    That generation has not passed away yet sweetheart. There is a man whom Yeshua raised from the dead and has remained on this earth until now. His name is Lazarus or Eliazar and he is a levite who was dead for more than 3 days in the ground. Yeshua’s words have not failed.

28. 

    Dave says

    You said:”That is just one of many false prophecies by Jesus. We can move on to “not one stone” remaining in Jerusalem if you like. Also false”

    Oh my. Did Yeshua say that the every stone would be torn down in the first century? You are silly.

29. 

    David says

    I think the Rabbi is wrong about Jesus not surprising anyone. When Jesus returns I think everyone will be surprised. Jesus will be a Jew not a Christian.