365 Messianic Prophecies – Episode 23 – Isaiah 53 – The Furnace of Affliction – Rabbi Michael Skobac
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. – Isaiah 48:10
Join us as we continue to investigate the alleged 365 messianic prophesies in the Tanakh that Jesus supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament!
Join us for this year’s Tanakh Tour of Israel!
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So….can you produce for us the following, please:
The Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:10-22, Joshua 3 and 4)
The Torah scroll Moshe wrote (Deut. 31 vs. 9 and 26)
The Tablets of the Testimony/10 Commandments (Ex 40:20)
The jar of manna (Exodus 16:33)
Aaron’s rod (Exodus 7, 8, 9, Numbers 17:10)
Changing the subject seems to be the first line of defense of the missionary who cannot actually refute any of the arguments.
Carmen, I’m not sure what your point is, but regarding the items on your list, Jason and I did the following program: https://truth2u.org/2013/05/hr-raiders-of-the-lost-ark.html
My point, dear Jono, is that you and Jason and many others have REJECTED Y’shua and the NT as “myths” – and so I challenged you to produce the items in the ark – to prove they are NOT “myths”.. But since you’ve obviously recognized this could be a problem, you’ve produced a show to explain those things away – LOL! Well, okay, fine. PRODUCE the ARK OF THE COVENANT and the TWO STONE TABLETS to prove to me they are NOT myths! And Sophiee – please take your big mouth and see for yourself that many of the Jewish allegations against “Jesus” HAVE BEEN refuted on my website (instead of constantly using the same, tired arguments you always use!) – http://therefinersfire.org/ca.htm
Carmen,
Can you produce for us please:
World peace?
Universal Knowledge of God?
The Third Temple?
As Sophiee points out, you are changing the subject. I can only assume that is because you cannot rebut R’ Skobac. Do you then admit that Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 53?
Jim
Carmen, I’m assuming you ‘know’ that the Ark of the Covenant, the First set of Torah scrolls, the Stone Tablets, the Jar of Manna and Aaron’s Rod did exist because you, like us, read about them in the text. The words of the Torah, that Moses, instructed by the Creator, wrote down and expressly, without any fogging of information highlighted.
The Torah, the series of books that Moses wrote under instruction by God clearly and concisely speaks about these items. Where they came from, why and what they were for. God in fact clearly ‘speaks’ to Moses and in most cases ‘Israel’ regarding them. Our faith in God and His recording of Torah via Moses makes our acceptance of these items obvious given our belief.
..and this I think is where you point falls a little flat.
We believe with absolute faith in the words God spoke to Moses. We believe with absolute faith in the words that God asked Moses to record. Therefore we believe in the existence (at whatever time) of these items.
BUT – God did NOT mention in the Torah clearly or consistently that a messiah must die for the sins of man kind. IF the Torah did in fact say, ‘and you shall believe in a messiah king who shall come and redeem the world of it’s sin or else your will be cast off into hell’ (or some such) and we decided NOT to believe that, you would have a fair argument but to imply that our lack of faith in the New Testament is some how an error in judgement because we choose to believe the words of God in His Torah seems a little like comparing bubbles and rocks.
I hope you are having a great week 🙂
I’m sorry, Sophiee, but it’s truly maddening to see comments like your last one, above, which is clearly designed to belittle! It’s maddening to be constantly antagonized by “the Jews” and the “converts” (those like Jono and Jason who rejected Y’shua and now EXIST to bash and trash those of us who DO believe Y’shua is the Messiah). You guys are like a bunch of vipers who lie in wait for someone to pass by and then bite them – and when they dare to confront you in any way, you not only become vicious to the point of ridiculousness, which includes name calling and berating people’s characters – but then you whine and cry and make MORE accusations against them when they disable the comments (i.e., which I did on my videos) BECAUSE of the viciousness!
But yeah, I totally get that, according to Judaism, it’s OKAY to harass and harangue and be mean to non-Jews/idolators/heretics! What I don’t get is that you brazenly make statements like the one above (concerning changing the subject as a “first line of defense of the missionary who cannot actually refute any of the arguments.”), while YOU NEVER bother responding to the ANSWERS we DO give you – i.e., I amply refuted MANY of you guys’ allegations on my website and in my last 5 videos – and I don’t see ANY of “you” responding to what I said! You just continue to use the same ol’ tired stuff you learned along the way, and nothing is going to change that, I guess. You also didn’t respond to my “gotcha” on your blog where you said that it wasn’t GOD’s people who built the golden calf at Sinai. That’s total baloney, because Aaron was instrumental in building the golden calf!
Why is it wrong of me to charge you to produce evidence of the ark and its contents as PROOF that what you believe is NOT a myth? Produce them, Sophiee, I dare ya!
Reply to Jim …. First, you answered a question with a question! Secondly, who said the Messiah had to fulfill those things in a certain timeframe? And sigh! How am I changing the subject? You people are denying Y’shua as Messiah. I see Isaiah 53 as talking about Y’shua. I mean, please – The early rabbis taught that Isaiah 53 was about the Jewish Messiah. Modern traditional Jewish rabbis insist that it’s about Israel. So what’s the real scoop?
Concerning Isaiah 53 supposedly being about Israel, we must ask ourselves: Can Israel DIE for Israel? (No, but Y’shua did! See Matthew 27.) Can Israel be wounded for our transgressions? (No, but Y’shua was! See Matthew 27.) Can people take Israel’s garments and divide them? (No, but that certainly happened in Y’shua’s case! See John 19:23.) WHEN was “Israel” wounded for our transgressions or crushed because of our iniquities? Has the world been HEALED by “Israel”? Not hardly! Y’shua has filled myriads of Tanach prophecies – and people can reject it all they want, but they cannot CHANGE those facts!
Jason – It’s late here, but I promise to send you a response tomorrow. 🙂
Jesus also expected to fulfill these things within a certain timeframe. Matthew 16:28, “Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before hey see the son of man coming in his kingdom.” Mark 9:1, “And he said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” John 21:22, “If it is my will that the remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me. The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die.” [Strongly suggesting this disiple would be alive when Jesus returned.]” 1 Corinthians 7:29, “I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives life as though they had none…for the form of this world is passing away.” Revelation 22:20, “He who testifies to these things ssay, ‘Surely I am coming soon.'” Jim & Carmen – these verses LIMIT the timeframe when he and his “spirit of truth-filled apostles” anticipated his coming. It didn’t happen. It didn’t happen because they were extremely hopeful, but they were wrong. The messianic movement failed. After the first century when it got entirely into the hands of gentiles, it bore no resemblance to the congregation under James, Paul, John and Peter – fully-observant Torah Jews and Gentiles who learned from the Jews how to obey the Torah’s laws for Gentiles. After being taken up by gentiles severed from the Natural Olive Tree, their doctrines went wild and 180 degrees opposite from their Jewish origins, with a brand-new “man-god” who “nailed the Torah to the cross” — nothing ever intended by James and the third-decade apostles. So the time frame was real, it was defined by them, and it did not come to pass. They were wrong. This was a failed movement.
Carmen,
I am sorry that people have come to your website and taunted you and insulted you. There is no excuse for such treatment. But please keep in mind that any hateful thing said to you by a Jew or a ben Noach has also been said by a Christian to a Jew or ben Noach. And, this is not a problem that exists only between religious opponents. The internet has created an age of rather ugly discourse. Anonymity has created for some an opportunity to express their most hateful thoughts. People say things online that they would be too ashamed to say in person to another. And because they do not see the pain in another’s eyes, they disassociate themselves from the consequences of their words. It is a sad age in which we live, when argument is reduced to mockery and threats. It pains me that people have abused you this way.
On the other hand, this is not what Jono and R’ Skobac have done here. They have offered disagreements based on reason. They have not attempted to silence Christians. They have not threatened them. Nor have they insulted them. Instead, they have shown that the Christian use of Torah to prove that Jesus is the Messiah is a misuse of Torah. We cannot label such argumentation “insult” or else the term becomes meaningless. Even worse, any discussion regarding truth will become meaningless.
In any discussion concerning the truth, sometimes things may be said that one party will not like, but that does not make it an insult. By the definitions of idolatry established by Torah, worship of Jesus is an act of idolatry. This may seem insulting to Christians, but I do not say it to be provocative. I say it because the Christian claims that the Torah is the Word of God, which means that we have a common standard by which we can test their claims. And by the standard upon which we both agree, worshiping a man, any man, is an act of idolatry. We only owe our worship to God (Deuteronomy 4).
In any case, I do not know how a Christian can be offended by such a statement. Christians often tell people that without Jesus they will go to hell. They tell them that they are naturally wicked and can do nothing to please God. They do not care if this offends others. After all, they are doing it for the good of others, whom, if they will not hear the gospel, will most assuredly burn in hell. Can the Christian be offended then if I inform him of his error? I do not think so.
And at least I can say this: I do not approach Christians randomly to tell them that they worship a false god. I do not go to their houses to bring them out of the Church as I came out of it. I do not hand them tracts telling them that HaShem is the only way. (I do not even go to their websites to tell them of their errors. I am sorry that others have come to your site in this way.) He is in error, but I do not make it my business to tell everybody how wrong they are.
The Christian does not extend this courtesy. They do approach me on the street. They come to the door. They pretend to share my interests so they can bring me back to Jesus. It is only when they have initiated this conversation, that I will answer back. I will show how they are in error. And in my experience, the Christian is usually offended. Even though he has started the discussion, he does not want to hear a response. He is unconcerned with truth. He shuts his ears and tells me that I cannot speak ill of his religion. (One Christian told me that I was extreme for calling the worship of Jesus an idolatrous act. He was on his way to Venezuela to bring Catholics to Protestantism.)
The point is not to compare “scars”. I am not offended that Christians speak to me. They think they are saving my soul. The point is that Christians have initiated the conversation. They do not wish to leave others in peace. They feel to do so would be an unkindness. But as they go about preaching the gospel, they are sorely offended should someone answer them. It is not just the hate speech that offends, but clear statements of disagreement. But Christians have started this.
I write comments on one blog… well, two now, I guess. It is a counter-missionary blog, the necessity of which is because Christians come to others and tell them they must accept Jesus. It is not my blog, but I hope to contribute to providing a bulwark against false Christian teaching. I do not instigate such conversations with Christians on their blogs or in their homes. But since Christians have begun the conversation, I do not think that they can rightly complain when an answer is given them.
Jim
Carmen,
Regarding changing the subject:
Jono and R’ Skobac did not reject Jesus out of hand as myth. In this episode, they addressed a proper understanding of Isaiah 53. Their arguments were not mere mockery, “Hey, can you believe those stupid Christians? They’ll believe anything.” Rather, they addressed a chapter in Isaiah commonly employed by the Church as a prooftext. R’ Skobac showed how the Christian understanding was based on a misreading of the text and could not rightly be applied to Jesus. He even addressed the point, as frequently comes up, that if the servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, there would be no way to prove that it was talking about Jesus.
Your response had nothing to do with what they said. They did not dismiss Jesus as myth. When you ask Jono to produce the ark, etc. it has nothing to do with Isaiah 53. Your comment was an act of derision and dismissal. You produced no counter-argument in that comment. All you did was deflect.
Regarding your comment to me that Jesus fulfilled these various prophecies:
Insistence is neither proof nor argument.
Forgive me, but I am not sure you thought this out very well, before you typed it. You ask whether or not the world was healed by Israel, for example. If you consider for a moment, you will see that the world was not healed by Jesus. This is a world full of many ills still, 2,000 years after his death. If the standard we are to apply is to see who healed the world, you will come up empty. I understand you believe that Jesus healed the world, but the evidence does not bear this out. That is a fact.
It is also a fact that the NT authors regularly abuse Tanach. I understand that you are attached to Jesus and you do not with to see him mistreated. I would ask you to extend that attachment to Tanach. Protect it the way that you protect Jesus. I am sure that you hold the words of Torah to be holy, precious words of God. Stand up for them then. Protect them from the authors of the NT. Do not so easily accept their alteration of God’s Torah.
Review the facts. Compare the teachings of Tanach with the teachings of the NT, not with an eisegetical eye, looking to find if one can squeeze Christian doctrine onto the text, but with a critical eye. First, discover what God says. Then see if the NT matches it. Make the Torah your test for the NT. Do not let yourself be prejudiced by your desire to see Jesus vindicated. Only look to understand God’s Torah. Follow the facts.
Jim
From studying the Tanakh I’ve come to realize very clearly that a “just God” would not allow an innocent man to die for the sins of another. Although He will have mercy upon the wicked who will turn from their sins to do what is right, and they shall live.
Isa 45:21 Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I YHVH? And there is no God else beside Me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not die for sons, and sons shall not die for fathers; they each shall die for his own sin.
Eze 18:21,22 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him; for his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Virtually 100% of Christian scholars agree that Christianity is based on Judaism and the Hebrew Bible. I am baffled by these questions that I have seen Carmen use before. How could questioning the existence of the ark, Torah scroll, tablets, manna, and Aaron’s rod bolster the belief in Jesus? I guess because Jews believe these things existed that that belief is based on faith alone, and belief in Jesus is based on faith alone too?
Both Jews and Christians believe that these objects existed. Their existence IS solely based on faith. Something to be noted is; the Hebrew texts don’t offer contradictions to their makeup or the circumstances of their creation. A huge difference between the Hebrew Bible and the NT are how consistently items and events are described. The Hebrew Bible never calls into question fundamental facts about these objects. The Ark is described as wood covered with gold, not stone covered in copper or bronze. The tablets are made of stone, not wood or paper. The texts are consistent that Aaron’s Rod was from an almond tree, not olive, oak, or pine.
This same simple consistency is not present in the NT, yet you believe that the NT is the inerrant – God breathed word of God. You expect everyone to ignore these inconsistencies and just have faith:
Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.
The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.
Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.
The baptism of Jesus was with the “Holy Ghost”. Mk.1:8; Jn.1:33.
Fire was also added to the baptism. Mt.3:11; Lu.3:16.
John knew of Jesus before he baptized him. Mt.3:11-13; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3.
Jesus begins his ministry after John’s arrest. Mk.1:13,14.
Jesus begins his ministry before John’s arrest. Jn.3:22-24.
It is recorded that Jesus saw the spirit descending. Mt.3:16; Mk.1:10.
It is recorded that John saw the spirit descending. Jn.1:32.
The heavenly voice addressed the gathering. Mt.3:17.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus. Mk.1:11; Lk.3:22.
Immediately after the baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:1,2; Mk.1:12,13.
Three days after the baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. Jn.2:1.
Jesus went to Bethphage and the Mt. of Olives, then left for Bethany. Mt.21:1,17.
Jesus went to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mt. of Olives. Mk.11:1; Lk.19:29.
Jesus went to Bethany and then Jerusalem. Jn.12:1,12.
(from Tovia Singer)
These inconsistencies are often attributed to “additional information” but, when information is contradictory it MUST be called into question.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Where is it prophesied in the Hebrew Bible:
That God will take the form of a man?
That the Messiah would come twice?
That Israel would be replaced by the Church?
That vicarious atonement is God’s plan?
That belief in the Messiah is all that is required for salvation?
That man requires a mediator to talk to God?
That Satan is the god of this world?
That ONLY the blood of the Messiah can forgive sin?
I’ve had various pastors/teachers explain that the answers to these questions are a “mystery.” Can a secret be revealed as a mystery? …I guess I need more faith. 😐
Carmen asked “who said the Messiah had to fulfill those things in a certain timeframe?: The prophet Isaiah: “He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth” (Isaiah 42:4).
The messiah will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies in his lifetime. (e.g., Ezekiel 34:25-31, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 23:6, 30:10-11). Jesus did not do this, ergo he was not the messiah. No “second coming” — no “second chances.”
There is no proof that Jesus even lived — which gets us back to Carmen’s deflection. Rather than discuss the topic at hand, Isaiah 53, she wants to say that Judaism is a myth (doesn’t speak much to her belief in Jesus as the “Jewish messiah”!) — and asks for the location of the ark of the covenant and its contents.
The ark was hidden after the destruction of the first temple — but it is not lost. We know its location — although I don’t plan on producting it just to satisfy Carmen! “….there were thirteen places in the Temple where they used to make prostrations [bow down]; but the members of Rabban Gamaliyél’s and Rabbi Ḥananyah the Deputy Chief Kohén’s families used to prostrate themselves in fourteen places; and where was the extra one? – towards the Dir Ha’étzim, because they had a tradition from their fathers that the Aron was hidden there. 2It once happened that a kohén who was busy working there noticed that the paving was different from that all around it…. he went and told his fellow about it, but he didn’t have enough time to finish telling him before his soul departed − so then they knew for certain that this was where the Aron (ark) had been hidden. [from Mishnah, Treatise Sh’kalim, Chapter 6]
There are plenty of proofs of the truth of Judaism — whereas there is NO proof that Jesus even lived.
One can’t visit Israel without tripping over proof of Judaism. From coins of King David, to silver scrolls with the Torah’s priestly blessing dating back to 700 BCE, to the discovery of a plaque with a seal dating to 580 BCE with the name of one of King Zedekiah’s officers. . .
There is the unbroken chain of transmission of the Torah from Sinai to today — not by some anonymous people who wrote a book (the Christian bible) — but by fathers who told their sons from one generation to the next to this very day. We can NAME each generation in that chain. We have Jews alive today who can trace their lines back to Aaron (Moses’ brother) — with DNA proving them right. We have Davidic heirs with similar family trees — and similar DNA proof.
Where is any proof at all of Christianity?
Any?
At all?
Even if Jesus did live — where is the proof that any of the claims made about him the Christian bible happened? One would think the Romans would have recorded dead people walking about Jerusalem, but NOTHING.
Carmen also said “Can Israel DIE for Israel? (No, but Y’shua did! See Matthew 27.) ” — Carmen, that isn’t what Isaiah says. Isaiah 53:9 speaks of a plural servant (the servant) “submitted to his EXECUTIONS (b’motav / PLURAL).” Jesus did not die MULTIPLE executions.
It doesn’t fit Jesus.
Carmen also asked “Has the world been HEALED by “Israel”?” — not yet. Carmen, has the world been healed by Jesus? Holocaust, pogroms, terrorism, etc. — definitely NOT!
Isaiah 53:8 is plural “because of my people’s sin THEY (lamo / PLURAL) were afflicted.” Not singular. PLURAL.
Carmen then repeats the lie started in the 19th century by Christians that “The early rabbis taught that Isaiah 53 was about the Jewish Messiah.” This is not true. An early church father, Origen, in 248 CE, speaks of Jews telling him the servant in Isaiah 53 was Israel and not the messiah. This myth that the rabbis changed the servant from the messiah to Israel is a missionary lie, stemming primarily from a 19th century book that gets plastered over the internet. I’ve gone through most of the claims on Messiahtruth. Rabbi Moshe Shulman has also gone into this in detail on his website, Judaism’s Answer. . . The p’shat (plain meaning) is generally said to be Israel — with the drash (homily, not literal) interpreation has been made of Moses, moshiach ben yosef (not david) and others. Saying that the servant can’t be Israel is not the right question for a missionary to ask. The right question should be “can it be Jesus?”
The answer to that is clearly “no” — based just on the two plural servants in Isaiah 53:8 and 9 as well as the fact that Jesus never had children, didn’t have a long life, didn’t admit guilt, etc.
Carmen, I do not visit missionary sites. As Jim wrote “I do not approach Christians randomly to tell them that they worship a false god. I do not go to their houses to bring them out of the Church as I came out of it. I do not hand them tracts telling them that HaShem is the only way. (I do not even go to their websites to tell them of their errors. I am sorry that others have come to your site in this way.) He is in error, but I do not make it my business to tell everybody how wrong they are.”
As a light unto the nations my role is to teach those with a desire to learn.
As to the answers you hear being “tired” — well that is true! The answers haven’t changed in the 2000 years that Jews have been trying to educate Christians. You can read the same answers (about Isaiah 53 for example) in the Disputation of Barcelona where the Ramban debated a Christian in front of the King of Spain in 1263 CE. You see, Carmen, the truth is the truth. It doesn’t change — and it may seem “tired” when you hear the same truths over and over again.
Origen, church father, knew in 248 CE that the Jews said the servant of Isaiah 53 was Israel.
The Ramban told the same thing to the King of Spain in the 13th century CE. From that debate. . .”Friar Paul (the Christian) claimed: “Behold the passage in Isaiah, chapter 53, tells of the death of the messiah and ho he was to fall into the hands of his enemies and how he was placed alongside the wicked, as happened to Jesus. Do you believe that this section speaks of the messiah?
(The Ramban) said to him: “In terms of the true meaning of the section, it speaks only of the people of Israel, which the prophets regularly call ‘Israel My servant’ or ‘Jacob My servant.’ ”
Friar Paul said: “I shall prove from the words of your sages that it speaks of the messiah.”
(The Ramban) said to him: “It is true that the rabbis in the aggadah (stories not meant to be taken literally) explain it as referring to the messiah. However, they never said that he would be killed at the hands of his enemies. For you will find in no book of the Jews, neither in the Talmud nor in the Midrash, that the messiah, the descendant of David, would be killed or would be turned over to his enemies or would be buried among the wicked. Indeed even the messiah whom you made for yourself was not buried. I shall explain for you this section properly and clearly, if you wish. There is no indication that the messiah would be killed, as happened to your messiah. They, however, did not wish to hear.”
Later in the debate the Ramban said “(Friar Paul, the Christian) then cited a (Midrash) aggadah (stories not meant to be taken literally). . . This is analogous to the bishop standing and giving a sermon, with one of the listeners deciding to write it. In regard to this book, those who believe it well and good, but those who do not believe it do no harm.”
Midrash aggadot is like a sermon — not meant to be taken literally, yet the missionaries quote from aggadot on Isaiah 53 as if it WERE literal. The 19th century book called “The Fifty-third chapter of Isaiah according to the Jewish interpreters” by Driver and Neubauer (Christians) began this missionary myth which is repeated by Carmen and others. This untruth is found all over the internet, because they simply do not understand (or if they do understand, they don’t explain to their readers) what Midrash Aggadot really is about. That book also quoted Karaites and Poets as if they were Jewish sages. . . not authoritative sources are aside sages — with no one explaining that a Kabbalist is very much into the non-literal meanings!
As the Ramban said to the King of Spain “We also call this book aggadah, that is, stories, meaning that these are only things which one person tells another.”
And yet these stories are repeated by missionary after missionary as “proof.” Proof like a castle built out of sand.
My answer is the same as that of the Ramban, 800 years ago. It is old. It is tired. I dearly wish I did not have to repeat it.
But the truth does not change.
I have a great admiration for the knowledge and research that the commenters here have made. However, I am seeing great potential repeatedly fall short.
It doesn’t seem a good plan to goad someone and then to react to his or her reaction as if it were pure. It is creating the situation of making an already frustrated person into an irate person and then condemning them for being irate.
I think that it is incredibly easy to place a label on someone that a particular group already has negative, preconceived ideas about in order to discredit anything that they have to say. This is a process and making mistakes, getting something wrong does not invalidate every thought the person or group has.
I read through these comments and I have to wonder. What is the point? Are you guys trying to convince someone that your beliefs are superior or are you trying to teach (and as an essential part of that, to humbly learn)? If so, is this the best approach? It is impossible not to shut someone down the moment you let your emotions rule and you box him or her in. After that point nothing you say to that person will be heard. I am definitely guilty myself. No one is in the position to learn after they have been clotheslined.
The truth is that it is OK for people to get frustrated. It is OK for Carmen to scream into the cosmos, If X is so, Explain Y!… I’ve heard it said that the truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable. This is not merely a fact-based journey for anyone here, there are emotions in play.
Being right and knowing a fair amount of material is overrated when the information cannot get beyond the wall that you yourself built. Truth without tact loses its value and that is very unfortunate, especially among such an incredible group of people. Debate it a good thing and it is great to have something outside of your own knowledge base and skillset to consider.
Jono, Tovia, Jason, Michael, Nehemia, Keith, and others take the time to discuss these things and present their thoughts, opinions and ideas. By the nature of the format, and the varied perspectives presented, there is no way that what it said will 100% agree with every commenter’s set ideas. I think the point is to think about it. The reality is that the truth doesn’t care what we believe… it simply is.
The thing that drew me initially to this site was the love and patience that these men have with people whose beliefs do no align with their own. It amazed me initially when I heard Tovia take questions from angry people on his show, how gentle and mature he was. It didn’t shake him that someone disagreed. This attitude seems to have carried on here at Truth2U as well among the host and guests. It would be refreshing to see it in the comments as well.
Dearest Jason – this is my response for you. Sorry it took so long but it’s been a long and busy day. Anyway, it seems you cannot and will not see my point. You wrote: “We believe with absolute faith in the words God spoke to Moses.” This is all I’ve said all along – it’s only faith. You have yours and I have mine. You and your friends believe, without any proof, whatsoever, anything that is in the Torah. AND, with the “new faith” that you’ve suddenly started believing in after you dumped Y’shua, you are also willing to blindly believe every word of Talmud – even though the entire thing is MAN-MADE. Yet, me believing that Y’shua is the Messiah – well, that’s just totally ridiculous in your opinion!
ALL of this is nothing but FAITH! Yet, I’m “wrong” and you are “right” simply because I believe that Y’shua IS our long-awaited messiah, and I see him “foreshadowed” in Isaiah 53! You spend your every waking hour, bashing the faith that I have in the same Torah that you believe in BY FAITH…
What I tried to point out in several ways (including in my videos – numbers 25 through 29) is that you all really DON’T have any real PROOF! You have FAITH! You don’t have any of the items (the Ark, Jar of manna, etc.) that the Hebrews/Jews were told to keep forever and can’t PROVE they existed, yet you guys will use the “we have faith” argument and at the same time demand of us to prove the Messiah, and when we say “we believe”, you hide behind the “you can’t prove He existed” rebuttal to dismiss OUR faith. This is a circular argument, and people like you and everyone on this thread clearly will not ever see or understand what I am writing (I know I’m in a hornet’s nest where NOTHING I can say will received kindly – I know this from experience!).
And, take your words: “God did NOT mention in the Torah clearly or consistently that a messiah must die for the sins of man kind [sic]. IF the Torah did in fact say, ‘and you shall believe in a messiah king who shall come and redeem the world of it’s [sic] sin or else your [sic] will be cast off into hell’ (or some such) and we decided NOT to believe that, you would have a fair argument but to imply that our lack of faith in the New Testament is some how[sic] an error in judgement [sic] because we choose to believe the words of God in His Torah seems …”
…So is it to be understood that since you can’t find “clear and consistent” statements in the Torah regarding the Messiah, it means that those statements about the Messiah that are found in Torah are no good because it was not clear and consistent enough for you? (I’m deliberately referring to all the errors in just that paragraph above, thinking that you yourself are having problems writing “clear and consistent statements” yet you dare to hold God hostage to what you think He “should have said”….)
If this is how you read the Tanakh, I can now understand why such perspicacity leads the Messiah Deniers (I hesitate to use the word “converts” because I’ll risk getting dinged by Jono and Yonatan again who totally misunderstood that I’m merely referring to people like yourself who have rejected Y’shua and CONVERTED to Judaism!) like yourself to conclude that “the Messiah must not have come because, hey, the messiah is supposed to bring world peace, and I don’t see world peace.”
Okay, so you say, “God did NOT mention in the Torah clearly or consistently that a messiah must die for the sins of man kind” and you would like to see a statement that says something like “…and you shall believe in a messiah king who shall come and redeem the world of its sin or else you will be cast off into hell”. I’m not at all sure you can be convinced that the Tanakh says exactly that very thing since apparently scattered statements throughout the Tanakh don’t qualify as “clear and consistent” – and I guess you can’t believe those. But here goes:
“messiah must die”: Daniel 9:26; Isaiah 53:5, 53:8
“for the sins of mankind”: Isaiah 53:8, 53:11-12
“and you shall believe”: Deuteronomy 18:15-19. Even the great rabbis recognize this as a messianic prophecy, and here YHWH Himself says, “Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.” That is pretty close to saying “and you shall believe”, but perhaps not “clear and consistent” enough for the “Jasons” of the world….
“messiah king”: Psalm 2:6-7; Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5-6. Pretty clear the messiah will be King, in the line of David, but perhaps not “clear and consistent” enough for the “Jasons” of the world.
“who shall come”: Isaiah 11:1; Isaiah 40:10; Isaiah 42:1; Jeremiah 23:5-6; 1 Chronicles 117:12-14Micah 5:2; many others. (Interestingly enough, it was clear enough to Rambam that belief in the Messiah “who shall come” is principle number 12 in his 13 Principles of Faith.) But, perhaps these scriptures are not “clear and consistent” enough for the “Jasons” of the world. (Of course the Jasons of the world will say they do “believe in a Messiah who shall come” – but when they say that, they usually add “…and we will know it when HE does!” That’s actually pretty funny because they can’t see the Messiah in the Tanakh, but they assume they will know Him when He comes!)
“and redeem the world”: Isaiah 53:11
“of it’s sin”: Isaiah 53:11-12
“else you will be cast off into hell”: Numbers 16:31-33; Psalm 9:17; Proverbs 15:24, and many citations of hell (sheol) in Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah 5, 14, 28, 38, Ezekiel 31 & 32, Hosea 13:14 for example. None are as “clear and consistent” as you would probably like, Jason, but what is clear, is that if you are not YHWH’s, then you don’t have a part of the Kingdom, and if you don’t have a part of the Kingdom, then what we refer to correctly or not as “hell”, is a likely candidate for what you get. I’m guessing you have no problem with Korach being swallowed up into the earth and going down to sheol in Numbers 16, but risk sheol for denying the Messiah….Yeah, I know, that’s just too much to believe….
I already know in advance that you and your friends will have a narrow-minded rebuttal for each and every scripture cited above, most typically using the phrase “That scripture does not mean that….” or “the Hebrew word means such and such” and then go on to explain why it could not POSSIBLY imply the Messiah. I’m wasting my time here, I know. But I promised to respond and I did. I don’t want to be accused for the 900th time of “running away” or “not being able to answer” – which many of your followers love to accuse me of!
Carmen,
You are correct to point out that it is difficult to rule out the claims of the NT based on the story they tell alone. As a claim, I can have no idea whether or not Jesus rose from the dead, for example. I was not there. Sure, I would have doubts, because I did not witness the events and they do not conform to the way of the world. However, the claim is that it was a miracle, and so ruling it out on the basis that it is abnormal is not possible. I could not know for sure that it did not happen.
But it should also be noted that I would have no positive reason to believe. I could not say it was true any more than I could declare it to be false. I would have to admit that I did not know if Jesus rose from the dead or not. This would not be enough to put my faith in Jesus. I would only be able to admit it could be a possibility. But on those same grounds, most other religions would be possibly true. I could not rule out the claims of Muhammed, Joseph Smith, or the Buddha. All would be possible, including Jesus.
But in the case of Jesus (as well as Muhammed and Joseph Smith), I have another line of investigation. The NT claims that it is a continuation of Tanach. It claims that Jesus came to fulfill the Torah. So now I have a way to investigate the claims of the NT. I can compare them to the Torah that the NT affirms is true. And if the NT contradicts Torah, I will know it is false. I might not still know if it is true, because I might not yet have determined the truth of Torah, but I can check for this consistency anyway.
On this ground, I can rule out the NT as a possibly true religion. It does not conform to Torah. To some degree the alterations of the “prophecies” of Tanach are the least of the NT’s problems. Admittedly, those are serious offenses. Matthew literally alters the words of Isaiah. So does the author of the letter to the Hebrews alter the words of Jeremiah. These are not small offenses, and they immediately make one suspicious of the NT’s message. If the NT corresponds to Tanach, it should not have to rely on quoting isolated verses out of context. But it is worse that it actually alters the text to fit its agenda. This should not be necessary if the NT logically follows from the “Old”.
But to some degree these rewrites and imposed meanings, as serious as they are, are the small offenses. The fact of the matter is that the NT is an entirely new philosophy, one totally foreign to the Torah. Torah does not teach, for example, that a man can be made a sacrifice for the atonement of others. In fact, we see the opposite, that a man will die for his own sins. But, if one repents from his wicked ways, he will be counted righteous. (See for example, Ezekiel 18). The NT foreshortens God’s sovereignty by declaring Him able to forgive the wrongdoing of the repentant without innocent blood.
Many such contradictions exist. Paul writes for example that the Torah was given so that people would realize their depravity through their failure keeping God’s commands. But to whom does he write this? To non-Jews, to those who were had not been given the Torah nor studied it. He wrote this to people who had never attempted to keep the Torah. But those who had received the Torah did not learn this lesson. Psalm 119 is not a complaint devoted to the impossibility of keeping Torah. It is an outpouring of love and devotion to the Torah. Paul writes that the Torah is impossible to keep. Deuteronomy says otherwise. The NT has an entirely different philosophy regarding God’s commandments than the Tanach.
The hero of the NT, Jesus, also has an entirely different philosophy than the Torah. This man whom is supposed to have fulfilled the Torah broke the Sabbath and taught others to do so. In Matthew 12, he shows his shallow understanding of Torah when he compares the emergency of David to the grumbling tummies of his disciples. He has a poor grasp of Torah. (He also contradicts the doctrine that God requires a blood sacrifice when he quotes: “But I desired mercy not sacrifice”.) He clearly did not understand Torah or keep it.
(For brevity’s sake, I will not list the other offenses against Torah performed by Jesus. The point is not to say that he was a bad man. The point is that he did not fulfill Torah.)
But let us say that Jesus kept the Torah perfectly, for the sake of argument. Would it follow that he fulfilled it on behalf of others? Not at all. I cannot violate a law issued to me because someone else is keeping it. If I am speeding, I cannot tell the officer who writes me a ticket that the person behind me was driving the limit for me. Punishment is not mitigated by someone keeping it better than I do. Just as there is no such thing as vicarious atonement, there is not vicarious obedience.
Even though, I do not want to continue to discuss Jesus’ faults, there is one that cannot be overlooked because it is a serious contradiction of the Torah. If Jesus accepted worship or taught others to worship him, that is a most egregious offense. The Torah is clear that one is not to listen to a prophet that teaches one to worship a god unknown to those who heard God speak at Sinai. (It also emphasizes that the people saw no form, so worship of any human being would be an unknown God.) If Jesus taught others to worship him, he violated the Torah most grievously.
Here the Torah is clear. God is alone. There is none beside Him. Christians say that God is not alone. (And then they try to affirm his aloneness at the same time. They want it both ways, playing games with words to try to make God alone and not-alone, one and not-one.) This is a most serious contradiction to the Torah.
After reviewing these and other contradictions, I can see that the NT is incompatible with the Torah. But the NT claims it is compatible with the Torah. It affirms the Torah to be true. This means that it is logically impossible for the NT to be true.
If the NT had not affirmed the Torah, I might be in a conundrum. I would not know if I could trust the NT or not. But it gave me a way to investigate its claims. It claimed to be compatible with an already existing system. All I need do is compare the two, and I can see that the NT is untrue. It is impossible for it to be true. It contradicts the system it declares to be true.
This is not mere speculation. I do not have to guess whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. I do not have to guess whether or not his prophecies might come true in the future. I can observe that the claims of the NT are in a total contradiction with Torah. Therefore, it is impossible that the NT is true.
Jim
ShoutedTheDustSpeck — thank you so much for your post. You are voice of sanity, and your points are well taken. The point of this site is in its title. . . it is about truth. Religion is an emotional topic. My mother used to say “never discuss religion or politics” — and yet here I am!
My intent is always to teach. I do not go to Christian sites to disturb people content in their faith. In fact, Judaism debates whether, for a non-Jew, Christianity is in fact idolatry of something less (called shituf). It isn’t a small point because shituf, although in error, would not be true idolatry for a non-Jew. (It would still be idolatry for a Jew).
Likewise, Judaism teaches that many people today have been misled and are not “true idolaters” in the sense that they have been raised in error, like one who was kidnapped as a child ( תינוק שנשבה / tinok shenishba). However, when a person becomes aware of their error they then assume responsibility for changing their ways. . .
Having said all of goal is to educate those who want to learn the truth. This truth includes correcting mistranslations, referring people yet again to the Hebrew, and so forth. For people with no desire to learn it would be nice if they would ask questions and then listen (or read) the answers without becoming confrontational. That is possible for some, impossible for others.
I do realize that even the missionaries who come here in anger, do so out of a true desire to love G-d. Their intentions are good, in that they want people to know and love G-d and are full of fervor. In a way I am grateful that they care enough to want to “save” people. Their intentions are good — but “the road to their mythical hell is paved with good intentions.” Take the first claim in Carmen’s latest post ““messiah must die”: Daniel 9:26; Isaiah 53:5, 53:8”
1) Daniel 9 speaks of two messiahs, neither of which are “the messiah.” This was addressed here in the program. “Tovia Singer – Daniel 9 & the Word of Jeremiah” Daniel 9:26 is speaking of the second anointed one who will be cut off at the end of the second Temple period because he was so horrible (was Jesus considered horrible by the Christians?). Cut off doesn’t mean die — it means to be spiritually cut off from G-d and the Jewish people. The word is “kareit.”
2) Isaiah 53:5 doesn’t say the messiah will die either. It says “He was wounded as a result of our transgressions, and crushed as a result of our iniquities. The chastisement upon him was for our benefit; and through his wounds we were healed.” It doesn’t say anything about the messiah dying.
3) Isaiah 53:8 is plural “because of my people’s sin THEY (lamo / PLURAL) were afflicted.” Not singular. PLURAL. Jesus wasn’t multiple people (hey, even if you think of the trinity no one ever said the father or holy ghost were afflicted). Isaiah 53:8 simply doesn’t “fit” Jesus.
BTW if Isaiah 53:8 is about Jesus please explain “He was released from captivity and judgment.” Jesus was not released from captivity and judgment — he was executed!
As Rabbi Skobac, Jono and Jason are proving with this very in depth audio program the so called 300, 365, 3XX “prophecies” about Jesus simply fall apart one by one when closely examined. It is fine for Carmen or other missionaries to list them — but EXAMINE them.
I am not “anti” anyone and (pun intended) some of my best friends are Christians. I am countering false claims. As Rabbi Tovia Singer says “how dare you tamper with my bible!” Read the Torah and ‘nach for what is in it — which is beauty and truth. The truth will set you free — although as the Dust Speck said, it may make you miserable first!
“forget not My Torah (תּוֹרָתִ / torot — plural) and may your heart keep My commandments (mitzvot); Trust in the L-rd with all your heart and do not rely upon your understanding.” Mishlei / Proverbs 3:3-5.
The answers to all of the missionaries mis-used “proof texts” are found in the “Debunking 365 Messianic Prophecies” series.
Jim, thank you for your posts – even though it was a slap on the wrist for me (I should be used to that by now, I guess!). I know I am in a hornet’s nest here and can’t win, no matter what I say. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told by Jews and their followers who have rejected Yeshua, that “Carmen can’t defend herself” – etc. I’ve got tons of articles on my website that ANSWER their questions biblically, yet they will continue to hold on to their beliefs and NEVER bother to respond to our answers. The biggest thing I’ve gotten as far as answers to my responses to their allegations is, “No, that’s wrong. The BIble doesn’t say that!” As a matter of fact, I have been asking this for years, yet NO ONE has answered me:
“Concerning Isaiah 53 supposedly being about Israel, we must ask ourselves: HOW can Israel DIE for Israel? (Y’shua did! See Matthew 27.) HOW Can Israel be wounded for our transgressions? (Y’shua was! See Matthew 27.) Can people take Israel’s garments and divide them? (No, but that certainly happened in Y’shua’s case! See John 19:23.) WHEN was “Israel” wounded for our transgressions or crushed because of our iniquities? Has the world been HEALED by “Israel”? Not hardly!”
Why isn’t anybody answering me on that? How is that a “proper understanding” of Isaiah 53? Why can I NOT get a response to Sophiee’s assertion that God’s people did not build the golden calf; but rather, the pagans who followed Moshe out of Egypt? That’s the most ludicrous statement I’ve ever heard! Yet when I ask questions, they are immediately ignored and buried with TONS of their own questions…
It’s maddening to see this constant BASHING of believers in Yeshua. I find some of your comments maddening, as well,Jim: “They have offered disagreements based on reason.” Really? In other words, I can’t “reason” eh? Only “the Jews” have all the answers….Well, re-read my questions above and answer them for me. And then tell me again that because I believe Isaiah 53 is about YESHUA, that I can’t REASON! And excuse me, but when Rabbi Skobac sits there and chuckles about my article on the Messianic prophecies and says on Jono’s radio show that Carmen “sees things in clouds” and consequently comes to the wrong conclusions about God and the Bible, I find that offensive! So please don’t tell me they are always so gentle and loving and not presenting “mere mockery” – because I don’t see it that way at all. And when I say something about it, I get slapped down – often in very derogatory ways. I’m not allowed to have feelings on anything because, after all, I’m just a heretic in their eyes and they are justified in assassinating not just my teachings, but my character!
I totally “get” that many Christians knock themselves out to shove “jesus” down the throats of Jews. But Jews are just as vicious. The people you have mentioned and myriads of others spend huge amounts of time “debunking Jesus.” WHY? Why not just ignore everyone else and just get on with the business of worshiping God? They are using their hatred of “Jesus” and those who believe in Him to PROSELYTIZE for Judaism – yet they insist “we never proselytize or attempt to convert!” Why don’t they just let it be, and concentrate on HaShem and doing HIS work? No, instead many Jews spend their time doing things like this: http://menashedovid1.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/carmen-welker/
WHY have none of the rabbis told Menashe to STOP this nonsense? I’ll tell you why: Because, as I’ve been told by Rabbis Singers and Yonatan, and even the illustrious Menashe himself, it’s OKAY to bash idolators and heretics….(I find THAT offensive as well, because I don’t view myself as either of those labels!)
So please pardon me if I don’t come across as “warm and fuzzy! I’m sick of the nastiness that comes out of “their” camps! If you are interested in seeing some screen shots from various FB threads where “they” are busy bashing and trashing me (because I clearly have no RIGHT to believe in Yeshua and I certainly must be “sick and suffering from mental issues” because of my belief that he is the Messiah – yes, someone actually wrote that, and NO ONE in that thread offered admonishment!), then please send me an email or a PM on facebook and I will gladly send you the FB screenshots I’ve captured, so you can see why I’m so upset. NOT ONE person has EVER apologized for these things, but they’ve certainly let me know why I have no business being upset about them….
Oh Sophiee, that’s rich: “We know its location — although I don’t plan on producting it just to satisfy Carmen!” You aren’t going to produce it because you CAN’T! Just like you can’t produce actual evidence that there is a Gan Eden, or that Cain killed Abel, or that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego went into the fire and came out unscathed. Or that Lot’s daughters had sex with him! ALL YOU HAVE IS WHAT I HAVE: FAITH! I totally believe those things because I have faith that Torah is true. I also believe Y’shua IS the Messiah. No matter how much you attempt to ridicule or bash, you CANNOT EVER take that away from me.
And “where’s the proof of Jesus?” I see Isaiah 53 as proof. You don’t. I don’t care! You also believe in the man-made thoughts in Talmud (some of which are really “out there”), and I don’t. Nice THOUGHTS, but I don’t ever intend to make Talmud MY Bible!
Where’s proof? I’m proof. My life is proof. I was born Jewish but not raised in the faith, and YHWH caused me to find my way to Him in a Baptist church where I first “found Jesus” (yeah, go ahead and laugh and diminish me for it – it’s what YOU do best. I don’t care!) He then led me to discover “the church” was off the mark and ultimately, after much prayer I discovered YESHUA and TORAH. To me, YHWH was showing me the WHOLE of the Bible! So, yeah, chuckle, Sophiee, and tell me I’m crazy (lots of your brethren do, on a daily basis)! Diminish my experiences if you want – it won’t change what happened. The thing is, neither you nor your Jewish friends nor your hangers-on who have rejected Yeshua can take away my experiences or change my mind. End of story!
SIGH! “Therefore it’s impossible that the NT is true.” Okay, I’ll go back to my original posts: Produce the ark and its contents! As a matter of fact, show proof that Cain killed Abel. Show proof that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego went into the fire and came out unscathed. Where’s the manna? The fact – that nobody seems to get here, and I keep having to repeat myself – is that all you have is YOUR FAITH that Moshe really did write the Torah and that it is the Word of YHWH Himself! FAITH, Jim. You sit there and insist Yeshua is a farce because of blah, blah, blah (your interpretation of Torah), but yet, you cannot produce ANYTHING as proof that the things in Torah actually happened, but MY faith in believing Yeshua is the Messiah, because that’s whatI feel in my gut is what IS 53 is all about – well, that is just plain dumb? My faith is stupid and yours is right on – never mind that you do NOT have actual proof of ANYTHING in Tanakh!
This is really a waste of time, isn’t it? You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and never the twain shall meet. I personally can’t wait for Y’shua to return and put an end to our stupid human mindsets!
Sophiee, I’m “countering false claims” too – http://therefinersfire.org/ca.htm and http://realitycheck.tv/ So, we are both on a quest, aren’t we? May YHWH Himself reveal the TRUTH and straighten up whoever is wrong in their assertion.
At the risk of sounding insane (and the dreaded possibility of being wrong), I want to reconsider Isaiah 53:5
as Carmen mentioned…
So breaking it down and then building it back up sans external influence…
O.k. so ponder with me a sec.
Let’s Start with to join (or keep company)
חבר חברת
Carmen, you do tend to ignore the facts that disagree with you. You belittle them and then throw out 40 other topics to obfuscate. You ignore Davidic and Kohenim DNA. You ignore archeological proofs of Judaism. You ignore the Hebrew (“their deaths / executions” for example). The national revelation of G-d to over 3 million Jews at Sinai which has been passed down from generation (not anonymous claims of people unknown to the readers as in Christianity and Islam) is the true strength of Judaism — and this legacy has been maintained from one generation to the next.
The fact that there is any proof is more than no proof at all — Carmen wants to dictate a specific proof, which is unreasonable at best. No matter what proof is shown she will negate it and yet again change the subject.
Her second to last post claiming that her “proof” is her emotional faith (“her life”) and nothing more shows indeed what a castle in the sand is her “faith.” She “found Jesus” — just as others have “found Islam” and left Christianity. Members of every religion can make the same claim that you have made here — and G-d warns us about it in D’varim / Deuteronomy 13. “If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!’–do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream…And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against Hashem, your G-d.” (Devarim / Deuteronomy 13: 2-4, 6; Artscroll Chumash.)
You ignore the words of G-d and the proofs of the unbroken chain of transmission and mesorah for your emotional clinging to Jesus the idol.
I feel for you, I truly do. You obviously have great fervor — but you ignore the words of King Solomon “forget not My Torah (תּוֹרָתִ / torot — plural) and may your heart keep My commandments (mitzvot); Trust in the L-rd with all your heart and do not rely upon your understanding.” Mishlei / Proverbs 3:3-5.
It isn’t a waste of time if you will open your eyes and heart to G-d and His Torah. This is the path that Jason and Jono have tread before you. Listen to these audio programs and then check the bible for yourself. To experience the true love of G-d you must leave idolatry behind.
I suggest you read https://outreachjudaism.org/believing-in-jesus-changed-my-life/ — but somehow doubt that she will.
BTW. Carment also wrote ““Concerning Isaiah 53 supposedly being about Israel, we must ask ourselves: HOW can Israel DIE for Israel? (Y’shua did! See Matthew 27.) HOW Can Israel be wounded for our transgressions? (Y’shua was! See Matthew 27.) Can people take Israel’s garments and divide them? (No, but that certainly happened in Y’shua’s case! See John 19:23.) WHEN was “Israel” wounded for our transgressions or crushed because of our iniquities? Has the world been HEALED by “Israel”? Not hardly!”
She said no one has answered these questions. I have. In this thread. Repeatedly.
My answers are ignored.
Earlier today I wrote “Carmen also said “Can Israel DIE for Israel? (No, but Y’shua did! See Matthew 27.) ” — Carmen, that isn’t what Isaiah says. Isaiah 53:9 speaks of a plural servant (the servant) “submitted to his EXECUTIONS (b’motav / PLURAL).” Jesus did not die MULTIPLE executions.”
Isaiah 53:9 says that the servant submitted to EXECUTIONS (plural) not a singular death, ergo it doesn’t fit Jesus.
Likewise Isaiah 53:9 says the servant “committing no crime, and with no deceit in his mouth.” — Yet Jesus did commit crimes and he lied. He had his followers steal a donkey for him (Matthew 21:1-3). He destroyed another man’s fig tree and destroyed it (Mark 11). and he destroyed a herd of pigs which belonged to someone (Matthew 8). He lied as well (John 7 for one example).
She asked “how can Israel die for Israel?” This is explained in the Torah — read D’varim / Deuteronomy 4:27 “only a small number will remain among the nations to which God will lead you.” Isaiah 53:9 is not speaking of every Jew who ever lived — but of the righteous Jews who have been tortured and murdered even as they remained faithful to G-d.
/But — as I have also written on this very thread — even if this were NOT about Israel it still does not make it about Jesus! Even if Carmen rejects the thought that the servant is Israel it does not “prove” that it is Jesus — and indeed I’ve shown that so many parts of Isaiah 53 don’t fit Jesus at all. . . and that is just repeatedly ignored!
2) Can people take Israel’s garments and divide them Carmen asks? This isn’t Isaiah 53 — more changing of the subject, sigh. This is lifted (it seems) from T’hillim / Psalm 22 and isn’t a prophecy at all. It is about King David. So Carmen’s insistent of “how can people take Israel’s garments and divide them?” isn’t applciable even though the gospels try to link Psalm 22 to Jesus. I’m sure Jono and Rabbi Skobac will discuss this one in due course.
3) Lastly she asks “when was Israel woulded FOR our transgressions or crushed FOR our iniquties?” This has also been addressed. Isaiah 53 does not say the servant is wounded “FOR” the sins of others, but BECAUSE of what those others did to them. This conveys that the Servant suffered as a result of the sinfulness of others – not the opposite as Christians contend – that the Servant suffered to atone for the sins of others.
The missionary thought that anyone can atone FOR the sins of others is not biblical. Indeed, the missionary idea directly contradicts the basic Jewish teaching that G-d promises forgiveness to all who sincerely return to Him; thus there is no need for the Messiah to atone for others (Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 36:3, Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33, Hoseah 14:1-3, Jonah 3:6-10, Proverbs 16:6, Daniel 4:27, 2-Chronicles 7:14).
Indeed the prophet Isaiah says the messiah will NOT be crushed. “He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth” (Isaiah 42:4). This was not true of Jesus.
I hope Carmen is pleased that her questions have been addressed.
Shabbat Shalom.
Proverbs 2:12
להצילך מדרך רע מאיש מדבר תהפכות
to deliver you from the way of evil, from the men from [whom] speak of perverse things;
Isaiah 53:5
והוא מחלל מפשענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
and which from being made void, from our rebellion, from being destroyed, from our inquity, from being turned away…
Our Peace (shalom) rests upon in the company of his (or and in joining with him). Our healing-comes to us.
O.k. so ponder with me a sec.
First check out all the cool little bolded mems up there. When mem is stuck in the front of a Hebrew, it generally means from.
Second, major issue, why did I use in the company of or join instead of bruise, stripe, beat up for the word HBR/HBRT?
Hang in for a minute so I can try to explain…
Let’s Start with to join (or keep company)
חבר חברת
Ezekiel 1:9
חברת אשה אל־אחותה כנפיהם לא־יסבו בלכתן איש אל־עבר פניו ילכו׃
“their wings were joined one to another; they didn’t turn when they went; each one went straight forward.”
Exodus 26:3
חמש היריעת תהיין חברת אשה אל־אחתה וחמש יריעת חברת אשה אל־אחתה׃
Five curtains are to be joined, one to another, and the other five curtains are to be joined, one to another.
Psalms 119:63
חבר אני לכל־אשר יראוך ולשמרי פקודיך׃
I am a companion of all who fear you, of those who keep your precepts.
Judges 20:11
ויאסף כל־איש ישראל אל־העיר כאיש אחד חברים׃ פ
So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, knit together as one man.
O.k. now bruise הבור
Isaiah 1:6
מכף־רגל ועד־ראש אין־בו מתם פצע וחבורה ומכה טריה לא־זרו ולא חבשו ולא רככה בשמן׃
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Exodus 21:25
כויה תחת כויה פצע תחת פצע חבורה תחת חבורה׃ ס
burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Psalm 38:5
הבאישו נמקו חבורתי מפני אולתי׃
My wounds fester and are loathsome because of my sinful folly.
Hosea 4:17
חבור עצבים אפרים הנח־לו
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
The passage, Isaiah 53:5, uses חבר/חברת which throughout the torah is primarily translated as “join”. This is an important thought when you look at the next sentence in Isaiah 53:6.
So, context…
Suppose Isaiah 53:4 is speaking about our griefs and sorrows… Isaiah 53:5 is talking about the cause and specifics of those sorrows that are causing the problem and that we (notice ALL the nus) need to be free from being made void/death, from our own rebellious nature, from being destroyed, from our own iniquity. What can undo all of that? Where does our healing come from? From joining (being knit together, keeping company) with Him.
Who is this him? I am not certain.
Go to the next sentence, Isaiah 53:6
It may be the him we have turned away from (instead of joining with), Yah. The inquity isn’t on a him (there does not seem to be a him in 6)… the iniquity seems to go in the direction of us. The iniquity is laid on us because we didn’t JOIN HIM and find healing.
So, Isaiah 53:4 our actions have consequences and we didn’t pay attention, Isaiah 53:5 from all of these actions/things we could have been healed with a solution, Isaiah 53:6 we didn’t value the solution, we turned away. Isaiah 53:7, our actions have consequences.
Carmen,
I was shocked that you felt I was saying that you are not employing reason. I am sorry to have left you with that impression. When I wrote that R’ Skobac and Jono employed reason, I was not contrasting them to you. I was saying that they were not sitting around saying that Christianity is dumb. No, they were (and have been) going through a set of arguments presented by the Church and showing with reason why those arguments are incorrect. That was not a contrast to you or the Church.
I am also afraid I have not clearly articulated my argument above, regarding the use of logic to know whether or not the claims of the Church are correct or not. I say this because your comment misses the point. You demand that I produce evidence of my faith. This comment bears no relevance to my argument, so I will attempt to clarify things. I am not the clearest of writers.
As a matter of logic, If Christianity is true, then Torah is true. Christianity asserts that the Torah is true, and claims to base itself on Torah. So, without knowing if either is true, I can still come up with the following possible logical outcomes:
1. Torah is true and Christianity is true.
2. Torah is true and Christianity is false.
3. Torah is false and Christianity is false.
There is no outcome: Torah is false and Christianity is true. This is a logical impossibility because Christianity says that Torah is true. So, if Torah is false, so is Christianity.
Now, without knowing if Torah is true, I can still test Christianity to some sense. I can examine its precepts in the light of Torah. I can discover whether or not it aligns with Torah, which it must do to be true. If it does align with Torah, I still will not be certain Christianity is true until I know if Torah is true. But if Christianity does not align with Torah, then I know Christianity is false, regardless of whether or not Torah is true. A separate investigation will need to be made to determine if Torah is true or false. But for the purposes of this investigation, I can narrow things to two outcomes: Christianity is possibly true or it is impossible that it is true.
When we apply the tests I wrote about above (and there are more from which we can draw) we see that Christianity is incompatible with Torah. That means that it is impossible that it is true. Without a further and separate investigation, you and I would not know if Torah was true, but we can rule out the NT.
Therefore, your response that I am unable to present an ark is irrelevant. It does not answer the argument. It does not touch on the argument. I hope I have made this clearer, because I was obviously neglectful before.
Note please that the test I applied to the NT was its consistency with Torah, which it affirms. I am not asking you to produce the grail or the spear that is supposed to have been plunged in Jesus’ side. Not at all. I am only looking at the logic of the arguments in the NT.
Regarding the passages you mentioned:
I admit that in this I was neglectful. I did not see the necessity. These things have been anwered in the program. For example, you ask: “HOW can Israel be wounded for our transgressions?” Well, this was discussed at some length in this program and the one previous. Israel is wounded because of the nations transgressions. You have offered no rebuttal, only repeated a question that was answered. Instead of showing that the answer was in error, you responded with an irrelevant question about the location of the ark. In essence, you have admitted that you have no answer.
So, I saw no point in going over points that have been refuted already, but which you have refused to hear. I am sorry that you are pained by the arguments against Christianity, but you need not be afraid. Though we have not yet reviewed the facts, there is good reason to hold the Torah to be true. Jesus may be dethroned, but HaShem’s throne is eternal.
Jim
Oscar Wilde once wrote “‘We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language’.” The words may be similar – but the meaning is often different. This same gulf is true between Christianity and Judaism and I see it in the comments by a number of Christians on this page. Jews are speaking of the plain meaning (p’shat) in Isaiah 53. Missionaries seem to focus on the non-literal “allusions” they see to Jesus.
This Christian method of “types and shadows” is totally foreign to the bible (and Judaism). Types and shadows uses unclear homiletics because the plain meaning of the bible does not support the “prophecies” of Jesus as the messiah. “Types and shadows” ignores plain meaning and uses allusions or possibilities not found in the plain reading of the text to build a case for Jesus. One Christian website explains it as “The New is in the Old concealed.”
Concealed? This is a confession that Jesus is not plainly in the T’nach (Jewish bible). The only way to “see” Jesus in the Jewish bible is to search for bits and pieces out of context and try to say “someone died, Jesus died ergo this is about Jesus” (for example).
Carmen recently referenced a phrase out of T’hillim / Psalm 22 (line 19) “They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.” The Christian bible has 4 gospels saying that when Jesus was killed his garments were shared by the Romans who “cast lots” for them. This, the missionary (and the Christian bible) says is fulfillment of prophecy. . . How exactly???
Just how many tens of thousands of people have had their clothes stolen by others (even using gambling aka “lots”)? Even if it happened to Jesus (unlikely since his clothes would have been a bloody mess from all that beating — Matthew 27:26, 31; Mark 15:15, 20, John 19:1 — why would the soldiers want to divide up these blood soaked garments?).
Psalms are poems — but even so Psalm 22 speaks of the person as being “a worm of a man.” Do Christians think Jesus was a worm of a man — or are we yet again ignoring context and plain meaning?
The psalm says “One should cast his trust upon the L-rd, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him” — what??? This goes against a primary teaching of Christianity — you don’t need “the blood of Jesus”! You don’t need the “ultimate sacrifice”! Just trust G-d and He will rescue you. Why? Because He delights in him!
But the missionaries ignore the bits that don’t fit the theology — and go for the “types and shadows” — saying that when Jesus was murdered the Romans shared his bloody and torn garments amongst themselves — first betting for them. But, for the sake of argument, say this indeed happened to Jesus. HOW is that a prophecy fulfilled? How many thousands of people have had their clothing stolen and shared by people — some of whom no doubt gambled with each other to see “who got what.” Since it can apply to so many (unlike a true messianic prophecy such as “bringing world peace”) — how can one even infer that this “shadow” of what happened to King David is a prophecy?
Christianity’s “types and shadows” is not biblical. How does one test the validity of types and shadows? Missionaries cherish them because THERE IS NO STANDARD OF VERIFICATION. How can one determine whether the bible ever intended types and shadows to be a prophecy – and how can one determine which verses are intended as such and which are not? Given the countless type and shadow meanings one can read into a text, how can they know which meaning is meant? Claims that are not testable are worthless.
To put it another way, If salvation stands or falls on identifying the messiah it is absurd to think that G-d wouldn’t tell us clearly how to so identify the messiah. Would G-d let us stake our immortal souls by finding “types and shadows” — HINTS — to figure out who the messiah might be?: G-d is going to play a game of “Trivial Pursuit” with our immortal souls?? G-d is going to rely on people looking for shadows and hints and those that don’t get those “hints” burn in hell?
Hints. . . really?
When your immortal soul is at stake???
That would not be the definition of a loving G-d!
As the prophet Amos says “For the L-rd G-d does nothing unless He has revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets.” (Amos 3:7).
G-d makes it clear that the truth is NOT concealed as far back as D’varim / Deuteronomy. “For this. . .isn’t hidden from you and it isn’t far away. . . the thing is very close indeed to you—it’s [already] in your mouths and in your minds so you can perform it!” (D’varim 30:11-14).
Prophecy in the T’nach (bible) is always based on the plain maning (p’shat) of the text. This is why “the twain shall never meet” between the missionaries and the Jews. Types and shadows do not ever make a prophecy! “A verse cannot depart from its p’shat / plain meaning.” (Shabbat 63a; Yev. 11b, 24a – Soncino translation).
– In the past, no amount of words would convince me that Jesus / Yeshua was not the Messiah. That was until I was completely honest with myself and realized that the NT is merely a Greek (many gods) addition to the completed Hebrew Tanakh (Singular God).
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God that I command you.
– The fact that so many Christians / Messianics place so much energy into defending Jesus / Yeshua instead of our Maker, His Torah, and His people, illustrates that they are worshiping another god whether they profess Jesus / Yeshua is god our not.
Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.”
– I believe that when the Messiah comes a book or books would not have to be written about him, the entire world would no without a doubt that he has come, as the services for the Kingdom of our Maker will be in place.
Jer 33:17,18 “For thus says YHVH: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to make sacrifices forever.”
Carmen,
For you, a parable:
Once, as often happens, a certain kingdom went to war with another in hopes of subjugating it. The kingdom’s army was a great host, thought more than capable of overwhelming the small numbers of those to be conquered. But when the invading army came to the capital city, it discovered that its walls were impregnable. And so the army began a siege.
For two years, the city held out, subsisting on what supplies within its walls. But in the beginning of the third year, supplies were low. Starvation would soon become a real threat. The inhabitants of the city feared that they would begin dying in great numbers soon. So they decided they must do what they had been reticent to do heretofore. They must send their army out to battle the immense host outside their gates if they were to have any hope of surviving. And so they did.
The invading army was surprised to see their enemy finally take the field. They knew not how to respond. Worriedly, they began digging ditches and erecting defenses for themselves.
“We are under attack!” one general shouted with fear.
The king of the invading army was horrified to face a desperate foe. He could not believe the audacity of these barbarians raising an army against him. He sent delegates to nearby kingdoms pleading for help:
“The barbarians have launched an unprovoked attack! Please send us aid in this dire hour. We have begun taking casualties from their sneak attack. Come witness their underhanded double-dealings for yourself! And when you see their perfidy, stand with us!”
How do you think his message was received?
Jim
Am I the only one to notice the irony? Carmen is afforded he freedom to write her “opinions” on others’ sites and pages – something she denies on her own sites to those who follow only the God of Israel as commanded in Scripture. Just that fact alone, tells me everything I need to know – she can’t defend her “beliefs”, so her only option is to take pot shots at them, never respond to a point, and silence any rebuttal.
Perhaps the real irony is that while everyone today engages in well meaning, but fruitless duels with one another, the real enemy is prancing about in their first century togas or sixteenth century scholar’s caps.
Jim, I really like your assertions:
“As a matter of logic, If Christianity is true, then Torah is true. Christianity asserts that the Torah is true, and claims to base itself on Torah. So, without knowing if either is true, I can still come up with the following possible logical outcomes:
1. Torah is true and Christianity is true.
2. Torah is true and Christianity is false.
3. Torah is false and Christianity is false.”
I think, however, that there are more possibilities. Namely, we must ask the question: is Christianity compatible with Jesus? We also need to ask: is modern Judaism compatible with Moses?
I would stipulate the answer to both those questions is a resounding no! Modern Christianity is not compatible with Jesus, nor is modern Judaism compatible with Moses. I’m not sure the word Christianity can even be applied to Jesus or his original disciples? I am quite certain the Taulmud is not in line with Moses nor would a modern Rabbi even argue that it was.